LEO stops for OC in CA

[jlottmc]

MOsoldier, I agree with what you say here, thing is you're playing by OUR rules. Douchebags have no such rules nor any compunction about killing anyone innocent. Dave Spaulding published an article on www.lawofficer.com that talks about this very thing. Look it up and read it, makes a couple of very interesting points. Here in TX we DO have to announce on a warrant, it is what it is. Point is this, you're thinking for OUR rules of fighting and warfare, not theirs. Most times a robbery is not planned, when it is there is little to no intel gathered, just the way it is. I know what we would do should we cross over to the dark side, but that is not how these guys think.

[MO_Soldier]

I agree that it is unwise to OC. But I just wanted to adjust the perception of how intelligent and analytical BGs are, or most of them at any rate.

MOsoldier, I agree with what you say here, thing is you're playing by OUR rules. Douchebags have no such rules nor any compunction about killing anyone innocent. Dave Spaulding published an article on www.lawofficer.com that talks about this very thing. Look it up and read it, makes a couple of very interesting points. Here in TX we DO have to announce on a warrant, it is what it is. Point is this, you're thinking for OUR rules of fighting and warfare, not theirs. Most times a robbery is not planned, when it is there is little to no intel gathered, just the way it is. I know what we would do should we cross over to the dark side, but that is not how these guys think.

I'm with you guys on most times...and for those most times I could probably have my head up my @$$ and still make it out alive after I become aware of the happenings around me.
However, I don't account for the majority ALONE...I expect the unexpected. And I don't do ANYTHING to make myself a target unless I have to, ie; dressing in dress clothes for work or wearing my military uniform etc.

So for those 1-10%(whatever you wanna guess) BGs that actually DO plan an attack, and WOULD think to shoot the armed guy first....I'll be prepared, and I'll walk away alive. That's all I care about.

And I'm not talking about just the innocent here either. I mean the armed innocent. IMO they become bigger targets than any unarmed innocent person.

[jlottmc]

Not disagreeing, in fact not weighing in at all on this, just pointing out that we don't think like they do. Personally, I look at the PRK (people's repulik of kommiefornia) as an example of what happens when the sheep get scared. I said before and I'll say again, don't spook the sheep. I have no problem with carry either way, I just don't want anyone else forcing their beliefs and fears onto me.

[tv_racin_fan]

The problem with California is those guys are making a point that it should be legal for them to be able to get a permit to carry period. In some parts of California getting a permit is like winning the lotto. It ain't as simple as applying for the permit and passing the background check.

Those guys who open carry an unloaded handgun in CA do so because while it isn't "wasn't" exactly legal it wasn't illegal. BUT in order to be allowed to carry it had to be unloaded and you could not carry ammo as well. Now to you and me that might be totally insane to carry an unloaded handgun but to some who can not otherwise carry it makes sense to bring light to their plight. That it brought light and the politicians passed a law to make it illegal is really sort of the point.

What exactly have they lost? The ability to carry an unloaded handgun right out in the open for all to see? What use exactly is that ability? Seriously think on that.. When the law is such that you can not get a permit to carry what do you do? In my opinion you bring light to your issue and hope that you can convince enough of the sheeple over to your side so that the politicians understand that in order to get elected/reelected they must do something.

As for setting myself up as a target by open carry. I might well be doing so, but isn't that MY choice to do? I know of two cases where someone other than law or security who were already targets were apparently targetted because of open carry. I know of a couple of cases where open carry apparently detterred a criminal from committing a crime on the individuals open carrying and in fact on the other people around them. IF open carry meant that someone had set themselves up as the prime target there should be hundreds and thousands of such stories to read, that there aren't is enough to convince me that it ain't the issue some think it to be.

In many cases the areas with the most crime are the same areas with the most restrictive gun laws. Kennesaw GA has a law on the books where every homeowner must own a firearm. The law was passed in protest of another community passing stricter gun laws. The area that passed the stricter gun laws had crime rates go up, Kennesaw crime rates have gone down and stayed down in an urban area where crime rates were going up. Virgin Utah apparently liked the Kennesaw Law so much they passed a similar law.

[MO_Soldier]

What exactly have they lost? The ability to carry an unloaded handgun right out in the open for all to see? What use exactly is that ability? Seriously think on that.. When the law is such that you can not get a permit to carry what do you do? In my opinion you bring light to your issue and hope that you can convince enough of the sheeple over to your side so that the politicians understand that in order to get elected/reelected they must do something.

As for setting myself up as a target by open carry. I might well be doing so, but isn't that MY choice to do? I know of two cases where someone other than law or security who were already targets were apparently targetted because of open carry. I know of a couple of cases where open carry apparently detterred a criminal from committing a crime on the individuals open carrying and in fact on the other people around them. IF open carry meant that someone had set themselves up as the prime target there should be hundreds and thousands of such stories to read, that there aren't is enough to convince me that it ain't the issue some think it to be.

In many cases the areas with the most crime are the same areas with the most restrictive gun laws. Kennesaw GA has a law on the books where every homeowner must own a firearm. The law was passed in protest of another community passing stricter gun laws. The area that passed the stricter gun laws had crime rates go up, Kennesaw crime rates have gone down and stayed down in an urban area where crime rates were going up. Virgin Utah apparently liked the Kennesaw Law so much they passed a similar law.

You're right, they haven't lost much, but the concern many have, is when the gun control activists gain momentum, how far will our right erode?

Your support for OC is based on factual events, so believable I won't even ask you for your sources. However, show me ONE instance when a CC person was targeted for CCing! I doubt you'll find one, but not having researched it, it's possible.

Your explanation of the inverse relationship between gun laws and crime is spot on!

[tv_racin_fan]

Gun control advocates have been losing momentum for quite some time. One only need check the differences in states that allow any sort of carry today and those that did so in 1986 to see that.

They have been telling the sheeple that it will be the wild west with shootouts in the streets if people are allowed to carry. They have been telling the sheeple that the blood will flow in the streets. The sheeple who bother to look can easily see for themselves that what the anti gunners have been telling them are LIES.

Crime rates have gone down in the states that allow some form of carry. Politicians have seen this for themselves and they have voted to allow some form of carry in all but one state.. and that one will get some form of carry in the next few years I am willing to bet.

IF you base your opinions off what anti gunners may or may not do then you have a serious issue because the anti gunners are always working to take the right to keep and bear away from you. They have done so since the nation was first formed and will continue to do so until the nation is nothing but a memory. They do not think rationally nor do they care what LIES they spout.

Your opinion and mine mean nothing to them in fact the truth means nothing to them. Only the feeling that the world would be a safer place without firearms matters. The fact is MAN has killed MAN with whatever he could get his mitts on since there were enough men on the planet for one man to kill another. MAN has thought up ever better tools for the killing of other men since MAN had the ability to think and reason. NOTHING you or I can do will change that. NOTHING the anti gunners can do will change that only they don't realize that fact. They think that somehow if they can just pass a law so that law abiding citizens can not aquire firearms that all will be well with the world.

Prisoners in prison who are arguably the most watched people on earth still somehow manage to aquire firearms ILLEGALLY despite there being incarcerated.

IF more people would open carry while going about their normal everyday live now and again the sheeple MIGHT see that there are far more of us out here who do carry and they MIGHT get the idea that even more people out here carrying MIGHT actually reduce crime even more.

[tv_racin_fan]

People who conceal carry have been targetted many times. NOT because they were concealed carrying specifically because if one is CONCEALLED carrying then no one around them should know they are carrying but because they were there.

I believe Mr Kleck has surmised that every year some 2.5 million people use a firearm to prevent a crime or defend themselves. As I understand even anti gunners believe it to be at least 400 thousand times.

[MO_Soldier]

People who conceal carry have been targetted many times. NOT because they were concealed carrying specifically because if one is CONCEALLED carrying then no one around them should know they are carrying but because they were there.

I believe Mr Kleck has surmised that every year some 2.5 million people use a firearm to prevent a crime or defend themselves. As I understand even anti gunners believe it to be at least 400 thousand times.

Exactly...no one should know they have a gun. You said exactly what I've been trying to say, it's a tactical advantage over open carry.

[muggsy]

Abusing a right is as wrong as never having it.

How do you abuse a right by exercising that right.

[muggsy]

I have been lurking on this list for a while and figure it is now time to "contribute"?

Here is another thought. What good is a "right" if you are afraid to (or can't) use it? If OC is your right, you should be able to exercise it whenever you wish.

Granted, OC will draw attention in todays world where firearms are being suppressed daily. But that is the problem! We need to give the public a different view of firearms. Gun owners need to vote and preserve our 2nd amendment rights. A "right" is not a "right" if it cannot be execised without some type of repercussions.

There are states where it is unlawful to keep your gun in a car while you are outside of the car. These same "may issue" states have 2 different types of permits (CC and OC) Given this scenario, you hold OC permit and are coming back from a range and need to desperately stop to use a bathroom (at a local 7/11 for example). What are you to do? Hide the gun in the car and hope no one notices? Carry the gun in the open as you are legally entitled and go in to the 7/11?

Sounds like a stupid scenario but guess what, this is real. Most people will hide the gun so as not to draw attention to themselves. Unfortunately, if John Law is in the neighborhood and sees you hiding the gun in your car, you will be the star of the evening news.

Bottom line is, most gun laws are stupid and need to be removed from the books. I say most, because I believe you must go through a felony check prior to issuing a gun license. A little education won't hurt a first time permit applicant either.

When I was a youngster, it was not an issue to see a young boy walking around a neighborhood with a shotgun or 22 rifle. In my area, guns were considered tools or forms of recreation and also as a means to protect yourself.

Just my 25 cents!

Exactly the sentiment I would expect to hear expressed from someone calling himself 1911. You must have grown up near my neighborhood. My father used to board a streetcar with a shotgun and take it to the end of the line to hunt rabbits. Try boarding a bus with a shotgun today. You can ride shotgun with me anytime.

[tv_racin_fan]

Exactly...no one should know they have a gun. You said exactly what I've been trying to say, it's a tactical advantage over open carry.

AH it does indeed have the tactical advantage but doesn't carry any detterent value. One over the other... Which one you prefer should be up to the individual.

[tv_racin_fan]

Exactly the sentiment I would expect to hear expressed from someone calling himself 1911. You must have grown up near my neighborhood. My father used to board a streetcar with a shotgun and take it to the end of the line to hunt rabbits. Try boarding a bus with a shotgun today. You can ride shotgun with me anytime.

I never saw it but even in my day children carried guns to school to shoot either in ranges on school grounds or to hunt with after school. ( I didn't see it living in a more urban area) Talking with my wife the other day we both remarked how for some it was normal for their first auto to be a pickup truck complete with gun rack and they were prevalent in parking lots of schools across the land. Ok maybe not in New York City or Chicago but for sure in Glennville GA. Heck they didn't even worry about rolling up the windows or locking the door.

Not so many years ago I was surprised to learn that some schools still have indoor ranges in their basements and some still have shooting teams.

[muggsy]

I never saw it but even in my day children carried guns to school to shoot either in ranges on school grounds or to hunt with after school. ( I didn't see it living in a more urban area) Talking with my wife the other day we both remarked how for some it was normal for their first auto to be a pickup truck complete with gun rack and they were prevalent in parking lots of schools across the land. Ok maybe not in New York City or Chicago but for sure in Glennville GA. Heck they didn't even worry about rolling up the windows or locking the door.

Not so many years ago I was surprised to learn that some schools still have indoor ranges in their basements and some still have shooting teams.

In those days a gun was thought of as any other tool. Guns didn't have the evil connotation that they have today. People seem to have forgotten that a gun is an inanimate object and that it's men do do evil.