LEO stops for OC in CA

[Longitude Zero]

You believe what you like how you like and you carry whatever firearm you like how you like.

You can bet I will as no opinions heard here will change my mind on that.

I didn't say it never happened only that I had not heard about it. Considering I do not live or visit the cesspool that is Atlanta nor its environs I was not aware of this event. I am glad that OC worked out. Unfortunately there is no emperical evidence to prove the opposite viewpoint although anyone with 2 or more living brain cells must admit it has occurred.

I have my opinion and so do others. I just happend to be forceful and abrupt in spreading mine.

[muggsy]

Actually far worse than the left chipping at our rights is the fact that open carry has become socially unacceptable in many if not most locations. There are of course exceptions. It's very difficult to once again program folks unaccustomed to seeing guns in the open to accept that it is ok.

Even in the old west many towns made you turn in your guns when in town.

I just don't see how we can reprogram people to accept the fact that it is ok. Even if we make them understand that it is perfectly legal they still aren't gonna be comfortable with it. They will call police, police will have to respond, a vicious circle. Those who legitimately do it like the trip hunting scenarios in certain area's again are probably gonna be ok. Those who do it to instigate and retrain (I love it when they say they are training the cops) are gonna create a scenario where the Open Carry law is gonna go away.

It's a sad deal really but it is what it is.

This thread is hanging on by a thread but I'm making the full 8 second ride. Let er buck!

Checking your guns in towns of the old west is a Hollywood myth. It didn't happen.

[Longitude Zero]

Checking your guns in towns of the old west is a Hollywood myth. It didn't happen.

Yes...No...Maybe so. Since none of us was everywhere all the time back then even if it happened one time makes it not a nyth.

[TriggerMan]

You believe what you like how you like and you carry whatever firearm you like how you like.

...and what might have happened if you were a single OC customer and a carload of armed robbers were inpatient? Your story could be in the Obituary section of the Atlanta paper. Something to think about.

The story says they decided to wait out the OC customers. It delayed the crime, it didn't really deter it. The police got lucky in their timing.

A single story with alternate interpretations isn't much proof.

[muggsy]

So your snide "turn tail" comments were just trolling? Use more smiley faces next time.

I wasn't trolling. I was just trying to find out where you stand. I don't go out of my way to look for trouble, but I don't run from it either. I'll stand up for your rights just as I'll stand up for mine.

[Thunder71]

Devil's Advocate:
In California that's the only way you can carry... Ever think that these people are just sick and tired of being stopped when they carry? If you couldn't carry any other way, what would you do, stop or continue and realize that you're going to be bothered by LEO from time to time? I think after a while it would get quite old.

[muggsy]

Please list just one con for CCW that mainstream CCW'rs admit is viable. About the only reason that I am not a fan of open carry is my familiarity of the bad guys OODA Loop. You can google it and read the summations yourself.

But basically with OC you give up the element of surprise. There is NO emperical evidence that I have ever seen that OC stopped or prevented a crime since the bad guys rarely speak about it and NO valid research has been accomplished. It would be my estimation that if a BG was intent upon pulling a job and he/she sees an OC then as the BG I would smoke the OC'er first to eleminate an obvious threat.

BY uitilizing OC you give up threat identification to the bad guy and give him/her a 1.6-4.8 second time advantage. Will some less experienced BG's leave when they see open carry, yes it is true. FBI research into officer involved shootings proves that an experienced BG will NOT be turned away by the mere presence of a gun.

Far too many folks believe a gun is what deters bad events. Those people are 100% WRONG!!! What deters bad events is a weapon in the hand of someone the BG realizes has the WILL TO USE IT.

There maybe no empirical proof that open carry deters crime, but I'm willing to bet that if everyone carried openly that there would be a lot less crime. The good outnumber the bad in society. It's when the good are disarmed that the evil flourishes and there is plenty of proof of that.

[Longitude Zero]

There maybe no empirical proof that open carry deters crime, but I'm willing to bet that if everyone carried openly that there would be a lot less crime. The good outnumber the bad in society. It's when the good are disarmed that the evil flourishes and there is plenty of proof of that.

Agreed on all counts.

[tv_racin_fan]

...and what might have happened if you were a single OC customer and a carload of armed robbers were inpatient? Your story could be in the Obituary section of the Atlanta paper. Something to think about.

The story says they decided to wait out the OC customers. It delayed the crime, it didn't really deter it. The police got lucky in their timing.

A single story with alternate interpretations isn't much proof.

What might have happened? A door might have fallen off an airplane passing overhead and killed everyone... a cannon ball might have come off the nearby bomb range and gone thru the door... What did happen is my concern more than what might have happened.

What might happen is that the whole point is moot. With H R 822 we might all have to live by the strictest carry laws of the nation soon. We might all suddenly find ourselves in may issue states with only the connected having the priviledge of carry. We might all suddenly find ourselves living in states where even an accidental showing will get our carry priviledge revoked forever.

Personally I think it should be up to the individual what firearm he carries and how he carries it. Some areas of the country are not really suitable for open carry while others are. I surely won't begrudge anyones style of carry or type of firearm. I attempt to simply point out that when I wish to conceal carry I prefer a handgun large enough for a comfortable grip (which currently for me is a Kahr K9 or a Ruger SP101) and when I wish to open carry so long as it is legal I will do so and I will carry whichever handgun I wish in that fashion. I may even buy myself a duster or treanchcoat so that I can carry my larger revolvers under cover. Might even get myself a shorty 12 guage and an Andrews Custom Leather firepower rig so that I can carry it. Might even have him change it up a bit and get myself a Mares Leg.

[muggsy]

Nope, right here in PA.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...m_is_shot.html

I don't think that OC played any role in this. It sounds like a domestic situation and that she would have ended up dead regardless of how she carried.

[John222]

Thats true. But to the public it draws a parallel between open carry and gun violence.

[hss.strat]

Abusing a right is as wrong as never having it.

[1911]

I have been lurking on this list for a while and figure it is now time to "contribute"?

Here is another thought. What good is a "right" if you are afraid to (or can't) use it? If OC is your right, you should be able to exercise it whenever you wish.

Granted, OC will draw attention in todays world where firearms are being suppressed daily. But that is the problem! We need to give the public a different view of firearms. Gun owners need to vote and preserve our 2nd amendment rights. A "right" is not a "right" if it cannot be execised without some type of repercussions.

There are states where it is unlawful to keep your gun in a car while you are outside of the car. These same "may issue" states have 2 different types of permits (CC and OC) Given this scenario, you hold OC permit and are coming back from a range and need to desperately stop to use a bathroom (at a local 7/11 for example). What are you to do? Hide the gun in the car and hope no one notices? Carry the gun in the open as you are legally entitled and go in to the 7/11?

Sounds like a stupid scenario but guess what, this is real. Most people will hide the gun so as not to draw attention to themselves. Unfortunately, if John Law is in the neighborhood and sees you hiding the gun in your car, you will be the star of the evening news.

Bottom line is, most gun laws are stupid and need to be removed from the books. I say most, because I believe you must go through a felony check prior to issuing a gun license. A little education won't hurt a first time permit applicant either.

When I was a youngster, it was not an issue to see a young boy walking around a neighborhood with a shotgun or 22 rifle. In my area, guns were considered tools or forms of recreation and also as a means to protect yourself.

Just my 25 cents!

[MO_Soldier]

I like legal open carry just so I'm not in the dog house if my covering garment fails momentarily.

I see this as the most sensible use for the laws protecting OC.
I DO believe we should have the right.
I DON'T believe that we should push the issue, because as you see from California, they're losing the rights.
My reason for those beliefs is that it is simply a tactical mistake. Like others before me have stated, and one I even quoted in this reply, OC puts a target on you. If I'm about to be the BG, I'm gonna check my surroundings: Does the clerk have a gun, do the 2 customers have guns, who's outside, are there cameras, where's my secondary exit? etc. After assessing, the guy with the gun is getting capped. That's just the truth of it.
I think the laws are important as Bawanna and others mention, for a little legal cushion for us to CC. I stand up for everyone's right to OC, but will defend that if your intentions are truly protection, then you ought to give yourself the tactical advantage.

I full well understand that when I do open carry someone might get concerned and call the law. The leo will more than likely show up and either see what it is I am carrying and comment on what it is I am doing and send me on my way out hunting or he will ask me what it is I am doing and since I will respond politely that I am going on about my business he may inform me that it is a might silly to open carry or he might just send me on about my way.

Seems to me it is all about the intent and actions of the person doing the open carrying.

It's not about that at all IMO. The focus is NOT on the OCer or their intent or actions. Like others have said, what BG OCs? The point is this...BG walks in to where you are wanting to rob the place, he's gonna shoot your @$$ before you ever have a chance because he saw you as his biggest threat. Put yourself in the BG's shoes, wouldn't you do the same thing?

Please list just one con for CCW that mainstream CCW'rs admit is viable. About the only reason that I am not a fan of open carry is my familiarity of the bad guys OODA Loop. You can google it and read the summations yourself.

But basically with OC you give up the element of surprise. There is NO emperical evidence that I have ever seen that OC stopped or prevented a crime since the bad guys rarely speak about it and NO valid research has been accomplished. It would be my estimation that if a BG was intent upon pulling a job and he/she sees an OC then as the BG I would smoke the OC'er first to eleminate an obvious threat.

BY uitilizing OC you give up threat identification to the bad guy and give him/her a 1.6-4.8 second time advantage. Will some less experienced BG's leave when they see open carry, yes it is true. FBI research into officer involved shootings proves that an experienced BG will NOT be turned away by the mere presence of a gun.

Far too many folks believe a gun is what deters bad events. Those people are 100% WRONG!!! What deters bad events is a weapon in the hand of someone the BG realizes has the WILL TO USE IT.

This is exactly what I'm talking about and that is why I quoted this reply.
It's a tactical disadvantage. Like raiding an armed assailant's home, but knocking first and saying you're coming in in 3, 2, 1...lol

[JFootin]

All valid points. But I just want to add for context that most BGs are not as smart as you are portraying them. Most of them, especially in the convenience store/bank scenario, not only open carry but enter with the gun in their hand. Many of them seem unaware of the cameras, not putting their stocking mask on until after the camera outside the entrance has recorded their face. Most of them hold their weapon sideways in gangsta fashion and don't try to use the sights at all, have almost zero knowledge of guns, and just hope it shoots when they pull the trigger. Most of them are not tactically aware of who might be armed and a threat to them. They are hyped up on adrenalin and have tunnel vision toward the teller. Most of them behave like primitive animals on instinct alone.

I agree that it is unwise to OC. But I just wanted to adjust the perception of how intelligent and analytical BGs are, or most of them at any rate.