9mm +P ammo

[wyntrout]

FMJ/Ball ammo can just punch straight through and do little damage and unless you break incapacitating bones, punch through the spine, or hit the brain, the body isn't going to stop immediately. The BG can be so intent on doing you damage that he doesn't even notice he's been wounded... let alone mortally. Adrenalin rush can do that... or drugs... that's why double-tap is practiced. Two C.O.M. may not do the job, but one through the forehead will turn the lights out... game over.

Expanding bullets increase in diameter and cause more damage, giving a better chance to incapacitate the BG. They also expend more or all of their energy IN the BG... not the wall or several other innocent bystanders.

Yeah, well-placed shots with ball ammo MIGHT do the job, but it ain't paper target shooting... you might be distracted by bullets flying at your face... and suddenly decide that being a target is hazardous to your health.

Wynn

[Markis82]

FMJ/Ball ammo can just punch straight through and do little damage and unless you break incapacitating bones, punch through the spine, or hit the brain, the body isn't going to stop immediately. The BG can be so intent on doing you damage that he doesn't even notice he's been wounded... let alone mortally. Adrenalin rush can do that... or drugs... that's why double-tap is practiced. Two C.O.M. may not do the job, but one through the forehead will turn the lights out... game over.

Expanding bullets increase in diameter and cause more damage, giving a better chance to incapacitate the BG. They also expend more or all of their energy IN the BG... not the wall or several other innocent bystanders.

Yeah, well-placed shots with ball ammo MIGHT do the job, but it ain't paper target shooting... you might be distracted by bullets flying at your face... and suddenly decide that being a target is hazardous to your health.

Wynn

+1 Well said! That was the idea I was trying to put across.

[Ikeo74]

FMJ/Ball ammo can just punch straight through and do little damage and unless you break incapacitating bones, punch through the spine, or hit the brain, the body isn't going to stop immediately. The BG can be so intent on doing you damage that he doesn't even notice he's been wounded... let alone mortally. Adrenalin rush can do that... or drugs... that's why double-tap is practiced. Two C.O.M. may not do the job, but one through the forehead will turn the lights out... game over.

Expanding bullets increase in diameter and cause more damage, giving a better chance to incapacitate the BG. They also expend more or all of their energy IN the BG... not the wall or several other innocent bystanders.

Yeah, well-placed shots with ball ammo MIGHT do the job, but it ain't paper target shooting... you might be distracted by bullets flying at your face... and suddenly decide that being a target is hazardous to your health.

Wynn

Same goes for +P+ hollowpoints, if they don't hit anything because your heart is racing and you are under great stress they will not inflict any damage on the bad guy. A miss is a miss regardless of what bullet you are shooting. I say shoot what is most accurate and functions in your gun and the one you are most confident in. Now with that said, I will most likely carry hollowpoints myself. A good reliable one that will shoot 100% of the time without any malfunctions. Those have not been determined yet for me but one thing I won't be shooting is +P or +P+ because they take away accurate shooting and positive functioning of the gun and the shooter. If you flinch and close your eyes with every shot you won't be stopping the bad guy with heavy ammo.

[Ikeo74]

Those of you on this forum that are shooting small size firearms such as the PM9 or the CM9 (plus many others) and are considering to use +P or +P+ ammunition for self defense in these guns should read and understand comepletely the information contained in this link...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
This explains exactly what the designations of +P and +P+ means in the ammunition that you may be planning to use. This information is the reason why I (IMO) think it is not nessicary and not a good idea to use this type of ammunition in small concealed handguns of any brand and type. After reading the information, if you decide to continue to use the +P ammo, at least you will know you are actually shooting. Good Luck!

[Markis82]

Those of you on this forum that are shooting small size firearms such as the PM9 or the CM9 (plus many others) and are considering to use +P or +P+ ammunition for self defense in these guns should read and understand comepletely the information contained in this link...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
This explains exactly what the designations of +P and +P+ means in the ammunition that you may be planning to use. This information is the reason why I (IMO) think it is not nessicary and not a good idea to use this type of ammunition in small concealed handguns of any brand and type. After reading the information, if you decide to continue to use the +P ammo, at least you will know you are actually shooting. Good Luck!

OK I read that. So, what is your point?

[Ikeo74]

My point is +P and +P+ is using ammo with pressures above the standard pressure level of sporting ammunition. When you push the pressure to the limits or over the limits you are increasing the chances of blowing up and wearing out your handguns, flinching and a number of other things without achieving much, if any additional benefits from the extra velosity the round produces. When standard loads do the job, why push the limits of pressure? Those of you that think you need more from the bullet might benefit more by going up in caliber to achieve more stopping power. You can safely get the extra stopping power in a larger bullet. Example, if you are shooting a .380, go to 9mm. If you are using a 9mm go to a .40 or 10 mm, a 40 to a .45, to a 41 mag, to a 44 mag, to a .458, etc. When using any +p or +P+ amm of any caliber you are going above the "safe" recommended pressures.

[MikeyKahr]

+p okay

When using any +p or +P+ amm of any caliber you are going above the "safe" recommended pressures.

Don't forget that in this case, the manufacturer Kahr states the increase in pressure is okay (+p is fine, so says the Kahr manual and web site). True, they say +p+ is no go - but they say +p is good to go. I go with the manufacturer's suggestion.

[Ikeo74]

Don't forget that in this case, the manufacturer Kahr states the increase in pressure is okay (+p is fine, so says the Kahr manual and web site). True, they say +p+ is no go - but they say +p is good to go. I go with the manufacturer's suggestion.

What Kahr is saying is that the gun will shoot +P, they are not saying they recommend you do. Compare it to a new car with a speedomiter that says 160 MPH, it doesn't mean they expect you to drive it that fast every time you leave the house.

[wyntrout]

There's a big difference. Kahr says "The Kahr pistol is rated to +P." Car manufacturers don't "rate" their cars to 160 MPH because the speedometer is labeled that high.

Modern pistols must be proofed to 130% or 140% of SAAMI or NATO standard pressures. +P is just 10% more... still a SAAMI rating. There is no SAAMI rating of +P+ and I really see no need for that +18% +P+. THAT is hard on your gun.

Older guns weren't necessarily manufactured to those standards and some are known to be unsafe for +P. The Kahrs are safe for +P, but you're on your own with +P+.

+P is a good way to get enough performance... velocity... out of a short-barreled pistol. Bullets are designed to perform between certain parameters... minimum velocity for the bullet to expand and not so fast that the bullet breaks up too much.

For most calibers, a 5" barrel is used for the testing and on that are based the ballistics and performance data. If you fire the same ammo in a 3" barrel, the hollow point or expanding bullets may not reach the design envelope and fail to expand properly. Using +P can get the bullet into the design performance envelope.

I use the Speer Short Barrel version of Gold Dots in my PM9 and PM45... +P for the 9mm and standard for the .45... the latter has plenty performance. The SB's are designed for proper performance in short barrels with different powder and bullet design.

I don't shoot a lot of +P... just refreshing my carry ammo after confirming reliable function in my pistol. I use standard FMJ... good and inexpensive ammo, for the range. I stay away from steel-cased stuff because of the extra wear from STEEL over soft copper or aluminum.

The defensive ammo I carry is Law Enforcement-type and has a proven track record with major law enforcement agencies. I don't need the "designer" versions with extra light bullets traveling at hyper velocities, or with "pre-filled" cavities.

JMHO.

Wynn

[JFootin]

The article says "+P ammunition, however, is externally identical to standard ammunition of its caliber. This was done when the ammunition manufacturers lowered the pressure of their standard rounds (1972). +P ammunition was designed to replicate the performance of what had been standard pressure cartridges."

It looks to me that +p is just getting back to normal.

[Markis82]

the article says "+p ammunition, however, is externally identical to standard ammunition of its caliber. this was done when the ammunition manufacturers lowered the pressure of their standard rounds (1972). +p ammunition was designed to replicate the performance of what had been standard pressure cartridges."

it looks to me that +p is just getting back to normal.

+1, +p

[TominCA]

I sort of gave up thinking about it and load Black Hills "extra power" whatever that is, it's not +p and in my dry phone book test it did great! I like Black Hills because its 50 to a box and cheap enough so that you can shoot a whole box at the range every now and then!

[HadEmAll]

About 9BPLE...............................

The Federal 9BPLE (115 grain +P+) I bought, shot, and chronographed in the past 3 years was pretty feeble compared to comparable Winchester and Speer 115 grain +P+ ammo. I haven't shot any of the Corbon 115 grain +P in recent years, but it is at least as hot as the Win and Speer loads.

The Federal 9BPLE only registered 1255 fps out of my Beretta 90two (almost 5" barrel) compared to 1375 fps for the Speer, and 1355 fps for the Winchester.

More on Kahr topic, out of my Kahr PM9, I am getting 1217 fps with the Win Ranger 115 grain +P+, 1223 fps with the Speer Gold Dot 115 grain +P+, and only 1144 fps with the Federal 9BPLE.

I had some primer flattening indications with the Speer 115 grain +P+ in the PM9, and have ceased using it. I use it in my sigpro 2022, which is bulletproof.

I don't have any pressure indications with the Winchester Ranger 115 grain +P+ in the PM9, and that is what I carry in it. I confine my shooting with in in the PM9 to an occasional magazine full. I like it, and will continue to use it. I monitor my barrel for peening.

I've also chronographed the Winchester 127 grain +P+ out of my PM9, but it only gets 1120 fps, and I don't think that's enough velocity to get that stout bullet to open up properly.

I don't believe the the Federal 9BPLE is loaded like it allegedly used to be. It sure isn't a "1300 fps load" anymore. Maybe that's why it was being sold all over the Internet at $17 a box in recent years.

If you like it and get a deal on it, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in my PM9. I don't think it really qualifies as a +P+ round. I had no primer flattening, or ejection pattern that would make me think it's even remotely in the +P+ realm. If you do, I'd chronograph it as soon as possible. They could always take it back to it's previous loading, but I think Federal is off and running with the HST line, and isn't going to change anything in the 9BPLE.

If you use it, just be sure you don't flinch and close your eyes with every shot. I manage not to.

[jocko]

if u gotta have +P+ in ur 9mm then buy a 40 cal and just be done with messing around..

[ltxi]

That's a really good point. .40s have a sharp pressure curve that give me, personally, a problem in small, lightweight pistols. That's why I carry a PM9...with std pressure ammunition. Seems to me that 9mm +P+ just couples the disadvantage with none of benefits of the larger diameter, not to mention stressing the gun.

Come to think of it, duh, that's why the .40 S&W was invented in the first place.