PM9 vs. PF9 (Kel-Tec)

[cgo99]

I thank you Mudinyeri for the report. It pretty much confirms what some of us suspected, that you can buy a cheap car and an expensive car and while both of them will take to your destination the ride in the expensive car will be much better.
I'm for one need all the help I can get shooting properly so a better fitted quality gun is a must.
Nothing against Kel-Tec but I have to believe that better fit and balance will have to translate in better accuracy and again I'm sure there are people out there that will shoot well with anything but unfortunately I'm not one of those people.

[Mudinyeri]

I meant no criticism of your shot groups, mostly wondering about the consistent left hits. I think the groups will get tighter too with more trigger time.
Does the ring finger hurt in a shooting position? If memory serves milking would push you right if your right handed. Both guns shot left consistently, mostly why I wondered.
Perhaps experiment with different positions on the weak hand, either more wrap around or maybe less. I'd like to see a picture of your hands in a shooting position. I don't claim to be no crack shot expert but like to figure stuff like this out.
I'm glad things are getting better.

I didn't take it as criticism. I wouldn't have posted the targets if I was worried about that.

My disfigured finger does not hurt while shooting. My understanding is that a milking motion with the right hand will push shots to the left. Also, too little finger on the trigger will push shots to the left. Believe me, I've analyzed and tried everything I know of. I need to videotape myself while shooting so I can do some further analysis.

The really strange thing is that it all goes away when shooting solo with either hand. Here's a target with solo off hand shots. Notice how they're all within a vertical plane of about an inch with the exception of the one flier out to the lower right. This is with a different gun but my results are consistent with virtually any gun. Normally, when picking up a new gun or someone else's gun, I will use a little Kentucky windage to get things on target. I didn't want to do that in this test.

[recoilguy]

Nice report......The results were nicely reported. Thank you.

When you shot 2 handed do you shoot with your strong arm locked or your weak arm locked? are you using a weaver stance? Where is the thumb on your weak hand located?

Watch this video YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting. it really helped me get my grip and my stance to a point I can shoot much more consistantly. Good luck.

RCH

[Popeye]

I have a P3at and it's a good pistol for what it is and what it's intended for, but really all you have to do is look at the difference in the quality of the two pistols to see which one is the better pistol and which one shoots the best. The one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb when looking at the two side by side in those pic's is the difference in the height of the bore in relationship to the trigger. Just by those pics alone you can see the KT 's recoil would be more making a folllow up shot slower and harder to get back on target, and a lot less fun to shoot. It is true each one has a place in the small pistol market . One is at the lower end of the price range and the other at the top end. I just do not see how you can compare these two pistols to one another. It's not a fair comparision for the KT.
Kahr's are meant to last a lifetime and are built accordingly. KT's are not, it's as simple as that.

[copterdrvr]

Isn't it amazing how much difference there is in the recoil between these two pistols! I can crank off two well-placed shots with the PM9 much faster than the P9F, which means that the gun is more controllable when fired-to me.

After putting the guns side by side and just spending alot of time looking at them, the only thing I can think of (and it IS very small but who knows the physics!) is the fact that there is more of the pistol above your hand with the P9F than there is with the PM9.

The following is a picture of my two pistols with the BORE AXIS lined up. You can plainly see that the PM9 sits lower in the hand than the P9F. I believe this is the reason why the PM9 is more controllable than the P9F and follow-up shots are easier with the Kahr AND the perceived recoil is lower with the PM9. And by "lower" I mean how it sits in your hand.

CT laser enroute for the PM9!


Just my two cents.

[Mudinyeri]

Nice report......The results were nicely reported. Thank you.

When you shot 2 handed do you shoot with your strong arm locked or your weak arm locked? are you using a weaver stance? Where is the thumb on your weak hand located?

Watch this video YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting. it really helped me get my grip and my stance to a point I can shoot much more consistantly. Good luck.

RCH

Thanks.

I've watched a number of training videos, including several by Jarrett, to no avail.

My stance most closely resembles the Modified Weaver stance. Neither arm is totally locked but both are extended nearly fully. My weak thumb is usually along the frame of the left side of the weapon under the slide (although I've tried a number of things).

It has to have something to do with my support hand but I haven't figured it out yet. This came after a full 90 degree break of my right ring finger and after years of shooting without this problem. It's not the ring finger itself because I can shoot straight with just my right hand. My theory is that it is somehow related to how my support hand engages my disfigured finger.

[jlottmc]

You may be putting pressure on that finger and mashing it down. I don't know how or anything else, that is just what I can come up with.

[rholmes69]

I think this is a great comparo.

When I was in the market for a concealable pistol, I knew that a Taurus Slim, PF9 or P11 or other variant was what I wanted. The Kahr was on the champagne end of the list for the beer budget I had. I knew it was an awesome candidate, but out of my price range. I google searched and fondled and read everything for a solid two months. I shot the Taurus and the PF9 too. It just so happened that when I went to the gun show to buy my PF9 I had settled on, some dealer there had an MK9 that was shuffled off in the corner of the display cases and tucked in an Uncle Mike's holster. I recognized the silhoutte of the back end from drooling over them on the web. I asked what they wanted for it, and couldn't believe my good fortune when I walked away with it (used) at $500 OTD. That was only $150 more than I thought I would be paying for a PF9 at the time new.

I think these are what will help people make a VERY important decision. Choosing what to protect your life with is no willy nilly choice. And to the original discussion over comparing them, I look at it like this. If both were cars, both will take you from point A to point B. One will do it more comfortably than the other. And one will be doing it for a lot longer than the other. In that sense, they both perform their jobs well.

But who doesn't love looking over at the poor kid in his beat up taurus as you cruise round in your 911.

[unclenunzie]

Mudinyeri,

Thanks for making the comparison. The pictures and your range report are helpful to anyone who might be considering a pocketable 9 mil.

I'm a PM9 owner and shooter, it was my first and currently only Kahr. When I scoped out Kahr before buying, I was a little nervous about the Internet reports regarding hit-or-miss on getting a "good one". As it happens mine was 100% perfect out of the box to about 1100 rounds, when it had a couple misfeeds while trying a new lot of GD 115gr. A replaced outer recoil spring and she was good to go.

I paid roughly 700+ for the matte stainless with night sights. Expensive when compared to the Kel-Tec PF9 on price alone, but when factoring in the slide and critical parts are made from bar stock, and the polygonal barrel, and two mags, excellent trigger, I feel the PM9 is a bargain. Granted you don't get lifetime warranty like with KT but parts are available and not expensive.

It also happens that (for me) I shoot great with it. I am amazed frankly that such a light, small pistol could be so comfortable in hand and be so accurate. I think it is a combination of balance, grip feel, sights, tight lockup, and hi-quality barrel.

Saturday I went looking at a couple fun stores for my next handgun, which is just to add something to my small collection. I handled a PF9 and felt it OK, similar but larger than my LCP, which is a near direct copy of the KT P3AT. I felt it would be a serviceable weapon and I am familiar with the guts of it. I feel for the price you are getting a good quality weapon with excellent support, and would not hesitate to buy one, but only after checking out other makes in the same price range. Which I do whenever considering a purchase.

In my state, which has painfully slow procedures for obtaining permission to buy a handgun, I have to be very choosy. I have to be sure what I buy will put a smile on my face for a long time. So because I can pay more I will generally opt for the higher end guns and pay more for them. In the future if I ever needed to sell, those guns would command a better price than the more workmanlike products.

Anyway in the store I had mentioned my left-handedness so as to focus more on lefty friendly guns. My salesman mentioned H&K P30, a fine gun and totally ambi. I told him I already had one . But this was while I was handling the PF9, and he seemed surprised I would even look at the KT, considering my ownership of an H&K. I told him I was no gun snob, I would consider anything so long at it met my needs and desires. I think next time I will choose my words more carefully, as I think he was a bit taken aback.

So in this long round about way, I am saying you get what you pay for. Both guns deliver a pocketable 9 mil with similar functional characteristics. Both guns hit their mark within their respective price ranges.

[kahrbrian]

Isn't it amazing how much difference there is in the recoil between these two pistols! I can crank off two well-placed shots with the PM9 much faster than the P9F, which means that the gun is more controllable when fired-to me.

I just went through this process mentally and went with the PM9. I could have grabbed a CDNN special with two mags for about $290 after tansfer fee. I instead got an ANIB PM9 for $500 - but I based it on comparisons like this on shootability. I did NOT want to have to stick on a rubber sleeve to shoot the gun well, so the PM9 is the ticket. I have some posts on it on this forum.

[jocko]

OH my

I just went through this process mentally and went with the PM9. I could have grabbed a CDNN special with two mags for about $290 after tansfer fee. I instead got an ANIB PM9 for $500 - but I based it on comparisons like this on shootability. I did NOT want to have to stick on a rubber sleeve to shoot the gun well, so the PM9 is the ticket. I have some posts on it on this forum.

u almost fell victim to the low dollar (better deal ) price thing. You paid more for your kahr and you certainly got a hell of alot more to. Nutin for nutin today my friend. the kt PF9 is an ok gun, just not a fun gun to shoot at all, let alone longevity is far far far less to. I have 30,000 rounds through my PM9 and to me it is the most fun gun I own. I actually don't know what the longevity ofthe PM9 is either, Like a car, when you wear the tires out, you replace them, not throwbn thecar away. So far I havehad one cracked magazine follower... If it was painful to shoot, I would peddle it

[Mudinyeri]

I would agree that the PF9 is not as much fun to shoot as the PM9. The PM is much smoother with less felt recoil. The trigger of the PM is entirely different than the trigger of the PF. You can see in my targets that the harder, longer and less predictable pull of the PF's trigger exacerbates the problems I'm having with shooting low/left.

I just did a few dry fire drills with a laser bore sighter this afternoon and have some new theories on why I'm shooting this way. Hopefully, I will be able to make corrections that reduce the impact of my problem. Even if I can make some headway on solving the problem, the PF9 will always be more difficult to shoot accurately (and precisely) than the PM9. I'm fortunate to have a buddy who wants the PF9 which gave me the opportunity/excuse to pick up the PM9.

[kahrbrian]

Another advantage of the PM9 is that you can dry fire it with no problems all you want. The PF9 requires snap caps, and this is a pain. I know becuase my SA XD 45C needs them.

[mr surveyor]

Since I am an admin on one of the KT boards, you'd think I would really be raising a stink...... naaaahhhhh. I love guns, and especially guns with a dedicated purpose. I've owned several KT firearms... P11, P32, P3AT, PF9, Sub2000...... Through all of them over the years, I learned to appreciate George Kelgren'[s ingenuity in designing compact, lightweight firearms. Kelgren (Kel-Tec) jumped on the polymer bandwagon back in the mid 90's and was a driving force in the development of sub-compact, upper caliber handguns. His early "mission" with the Kel-Tec line was developing hide-away, back-up guns for law enforcement officers, and served the purpose pretty well. The biggest problem with the KT pistols seems to be the weight to power ratio.... in other words, a tiny, super light weight handgun launching the hottest projectile possible. In some hands they function flawlessly... in others, they fail. Last I heard, the actual return rate of KT pistols was under 5%.... that seems high, but with such a light weight package there's a certain percentage of human error involved.

Now, that being said, I consider the Kahr pistols to be superior in quality of both materials and manufacturing, but all I have in the Kahr line to make that comparison is my CW9. As a matter of fact, out of necessity for a new wheel gun for the field, I traded a perfectly good KT PF9 and crappy (rusting) Rossi .38for a S&W Airweight a couple of years ago. I missed the PF9 immensly, but substituted my Sig P239 for certain days and still had my perfectly good KT P3AT for the others. Last year, during the ammo crunch, I decided my 4 year old P3AT just couldn't be fed enough, and it got traded (along with $200) for a NIB CW9. I had read and heard all the horror stories of the Kahr bashers (same as the Kel-Tec bashers, the Kimber bashers, etc), but also knew that hands on experience was more important. My CW9 has been flawless through some 800 rounds (I used to shoot that much in a month) and I couldn't be more pleased.

Do I miss my P3AT..... yep! The CW9 just ain't the deep cover boot gun that the P3AT was. But, I still have mrs surv's P32 in a pinch, but she won't part with it. If gun/fun money was still available, I would have kept the PF9 and P3AT, as well as buying the CW9, MK9, and probably a few others.

And, as far as the PM9 to PF9 comparison...... there's a bit of major difference to conosider. The PM9 really fits in between the P3AT and PF9 as far as overall size. Actually, the CW9 is closer dimensionally to the PF9.

OK, I'll shut up.... just hated to see this wonderful forum become a bashing board for all that ain't Kahr.


surv

[jeepster09]

I have tried a number of Kahrs over the years.....everyone had failure to feed when changing mags. I tried polishing the feedramps etc. and so forth. I no longer own a Kahr due to lack of confidence :40: or perhaps fear of not having it work when needed most.
I think the Kahr [Cadillac] is way pricey for the quality. I prefer carring my Para Ordnances. However I recently aquired a Kel Tec P11 [Chevy] and have had absolutly no problems with it for about a third the price and it is fast becoming my daily carry piece. Several of my local dealers have said they have seen the same issues and get a fair number of Kahrs traded in for other makes. Bring on the bashing......sometimes price is not the only factor to look at. The Kel Tec trigger sucks compared to the Kahr but I can live with that.:33: