Up To What Distance Are You Accurate?

[Riccardo]

Pocket guns are not known for their long range accuracy. I'm wondering to what range most of you PM9/40/45 owners feel accurate at? I'm also wondering if that changes depending on caliber?

At 15 yards, I'm at a 5" spread around the bullseye, but at 25 yards, I can only hit paper about 50% of the time. So I'd say I feel life and death accurate out to about maybe 17 or 18 yards. Hope a bunch of you guys will weigh in to let me know how much more I should be practicing.

[Bawanna]

The way I address this is throw the tape measure away and get a paper plate. Your basic everyday go on a picnic paper plate.
My CCW guns are measured by minute of paper plate. At the distance that all my shots aren't hitting the plate (at least most of the time) I've exceeded my effective range for that gun.
The key word to me here is defensive, not offensive unless your a cop and paid to pursue, then that's a whole new ball game.
If I'm hitting well with my PM45 or K40 at 7 yards and decent at say 10 to 12 yards I'm happy as can be. That's where they shine and thats where they are designed to shoot well at. It's likely you'll be less than 3 yards when you need it and most likely you'll never need it. That's often forgotten too.
I get lots of looks at the range when I'm practicing at near point blank range but you'll be just as likely to be close and far and beyound 15 yards run or find hard cover. I've ran at the mouth again. Sorry.

[OldLincoln]

... at 25 yards, I can only hit paper about 50% of the time.

Get a bigger piece of paper! If you get in a gun fight with someone 75 feet away you are a big exception. However, if you can see the sights and target at that distance you can learn to score well.

Yesterday at the range, I got a wild hair and knelt resting my PM9 on the shooting bench. Holding the gun at arms length and squinting enough to push tears I could just make out the sights and a fuzzy spot that looked like my target. I can say I hit what I aimed for because that was a big fuzzy spot.

I've taught myself to point shoot (with the help of a few youtube videos) and did real well with that at 5 and 7 yards, where most gunfights take place. I don't use sights and shoot what I look at. Using a 5 circle target I put whole mags within the circle (about 6"?). Thing is I can point and shoot at least 2rds before many people can shoot once looking through the sights (properly). If you can dump a mag into a pie plate you've hit the bad guy. Don't fret over a 2" group, the bad guy won't complain with a chest full of lead.

Having said all that, there are proper shooting techniques regarding grip and trigger pull that are important. Our own Jeep45238 has a few YouTube videos linked in the "CCW, Tactics, and Training" Forum here. He's pretty good and they are worth watching.

[bigmacque]

I watched a motivational speakers video several years ago, I wish I could remember the speakers name or the name of the presentation. But basically, this guy talked about focusing in on business issues to resolve problems.

He started with a fairly large, round, object that he threw in the air, and hit with a BB gun, then had each attendee do the same. Over the course of the day, he gradually reduced the size of the target, down through cheap china plates, etc., until by the end of the day he had everyone of the people that were in his class that day able to pop an aspirin that had been thrown up in the air with a BB gun.

Point is, with practice and training, you can hit anything.

A few weeks ago I started a thread that noted my own issues with accuracy with my PM9. My range time Tuesday had me hit a 4" round at 25 yards with all 13 shots, the full 6rnd mag and the full 7rnd mag, one shot after another. It's doable, you just have to work at it. If I can do it, anyone can .... believe me.

[joshh]

shooting for fun with my pm9 i set up plate targets out as much as 25yards. my club has a sand bank at 125 yards with a steel plate 12" wide x 18" tall that i can hit with the pm9 about 33% of my shots (50%+ with my glock22). when i practice defensive shooting it's all up close (10'-20') and draw from holster (safety on) in 3 shot bursts, center of mass is all i care about. fun gun to shoot, few arent!

[garyb]

I recently received my new PM40 and after breaking it in I benched it to sight it in and to sight in the CTL. I merely wanted to see what the gun was capable of and the bench eliminates much, not all, of the shooter problems...Lord know I have some. It turns out that the sights were dead on at 15-20 yards and the CTL matched the sights at that distance. My next attempt will be at 25 yards. However, at 7-15 yards, I was consistently hitting a 5" circle with no problem, weaver off hand. The CTL is only useful up to about 10 yards in bright light and was very effective and accurate up to that range weaver off hand. Off hand, the first thing I had to get a handle on was what part of my finger to squeeze with. www.frontsight.com has a good phamplet on dry fire training with a good section on selecting the spot on your trigger finger. I found that with the DAO trigger, I needed the trigger to be in the middle of the pad of the distal portion of the finger (for me). If I had the trigger on the end of my trigger finger I shot left consistently. If I had the trigger on the joint of my trigger finger I shot right consistently. Once I worked this out and got used to this trigger I learned to take up the trigger and squeeze it just to the surprise point, then squeeze through that point without letting the discharge effect the point of aim. It was a matter of ignoring the barrel flip/recoil and simply following through smoothly with my aim and trigger pull. A buddy of mine who is an IDPA master level shooter and DEC environment conservation officer (carries for a living) and shoots ALOT, gave me this advice on follow through. It takes some practice, but is very effective during dry fire or live ammo practice. It should feel the same at that point and just beyond.

I tend to believe this little PM40 will eventually prove to be accurate out to 25 yards and beyond, but those distances will be more of a burden on me than this sexy little gun.

[JodyH]

100% on 35 yard IDPA -0's and 1 hole groups at 7 yards if I take my time.
But the majority of the time I'm satisfied with IDPA -0's as fast as possible at 3-10 yards.

[jocko]

Your OK

Pocket guns are not known for their long range accuracy. I'm wondering to what range most of you PM9/40/45 owners feel accurate at? I'm also wondering if that changes depending on caliber?

At 15 yards, I'm at a 5" spread around the bullseye, but at 25 yards, I can only hit paper about 50% of the time. So I'd say I feel life and death accurate out to about maybe 17 or 18 yards. Hope a bunch of you guys will weigh in to let me know how much more I should be practicing.

IMO, I can't hit jack sh-t at 15 yards with my PM9, so I never worry about the 25 yard thing. I try toget good at 7 yards and under and I am OK at that distance. Not 2" groups mind u but at 7 yards the BG is in deep sh-t. I just don't put any emphasis at 25 yards , not a sitauation that I feel is necessary near as much as 7 yards and under. 25 yards hots to me are "liability legal " shots, 7 yards and under to me are pure defense shots.

YMMV.

[bigmacque]

I have to agree with you jocko. I practiced and practiced for accuracy, I'm at 490 rounds through mine now -- owned it for five weeks -- but the truth is, in a situation all I really care about is COM. I think you may be correct about liability also ... if they're that far away, they're going to have just as much trouble hitting you as you would them.

I really just wanted to get as good with this gun as I felt I could get, it's more for the personal satisfaction of shooting it well than for any perceived need.

[jocko]

100 yard shots belong in afganistan, not on a super wal mart parking lot... that being said, I have no issues with anyone shooting out 50 yards or so with a handgun, not for maybe defense purposes but what the hell, when we go to a rainge, we want to have fun also and sometimes at 7 yards it can get boring. At my age, I don't run well, I also don't bend well either, 3 motorcycle wrecks and just beating the hell out of my body when I was younger makes it damn hard to do what some of you younger guys can do. I don't get overly paranoid about carrying either. I have carried fr 48 years. I won't be a victom, I was armed robbed in my gun business twice. I know what it looks like to look down a barrel of a shotgun and also of a handgun. Makes one wet his pants--trust me on that. So I carry totally concealed. I do have the elemite of surprise on a BG, for most never think one is carrying. Now holster that sucker in the open and it is a whole new ball game.Guns are like rubbers. No one needs to know your carrying them but when needed it sure can come in handy.

I personally would be totally wasting my ammo shooting at 50 yards, I could not call it practice even to hit something maybe one out of 10 times, nor would I get any sense of satisfaction from it. But again I have seen some of the shot groups on this forum from some of you good shooters that makes me just envious as hell. My hat is off to you guys. I try like hell though, with over 30.000 rounds out of my pM9 and from the first 500 rounds out of the gun to round 30,000 I cannot say I have seen alot of forward progress. So I am what I am, a pi-s poor shoot with my PM9 beyond 15 yards but very confident at 7 yards and under. I really don't have that real fear at 15 or 25 yards as I would have at 5-7 yards, so I am very good at COM at that distance.

I know it is me and the PM9 also for at 7 yards I can cover with a quarter a 3 shot group with my tuned G19. Just such a super accurate gun in comparison to my PM9. AND TO ME IT IS ALL IN THE TRIGGER SYSTEM. But I would not trade my PM9 trigger system for a glock trigger system... It is as safe as a rubber when used correctly...

[garyb]

Practical application at close range and target shooting for accuracy are two different things. Practicing at longer range for target shooting fun does help you to learn your weapon better for close range applications. The same is true in archery where most hunting shots are at 20 yards or under, but occassionally you have a need to be proficient at 40 or even 60 yards. In whitetail country, 40 yards would be long, but in Elk country 40 yards will be the norm. It is good to practice at 60 yards because this will make the 20 yard shots routine and easy. The same is true with handguns. There is nothing wrong with working toward handgun accuracy at longer distances or having a discussion about both....the practical application at close range (7 yrds) or getting more accurate at longer distances which will make the closer shots easier. At the longer distances, the handgunners mistakes show up. Therefore, it seems prudent to fine tune, if accuracy at longer distances is what you want to achieve to polish your feed ramp(...so to speak) for better gun handling. When I talk to top IDPA shooters, they say it is all about gun handling which leads to greater accuracy AND speed at various distances under varied scenarios. It is not always the same 7 yard scenario. Nor does it mean that we practice at longer distances to shoot Bad Guys at those longer distances. It is merely accuracy practice which in turn makes the short distances faster and easier/more routine to be more accurate. Just my thoughts. Respectfully submitted.

[JodyH]

I try like hell though, with over 30.000 rounds out of my pM9 and from the first 500 rounds out of the gun to round 30,000 I cannot say I have seen alot of forward progress. So I am what I am, a pi-s poor shoot with my PM9 beyond 15 yards but very confident at 7 yards and under.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over yet expecting a different outcome.
30,000 incorrect repetitions would be 30,000 rounds wasted.
How many of those 30,000 rounds were under the watchful eyes of a good instructor?
I guarantee a good instructor could have you making solid hits at 15-25 yards in half a day and 500 rounds.

The math says a 8"x10" target at 25 yards is easier to hit than a 3"x5" @ 5 yards.
It's all in your head man.

[garyb]

JodyH, Agreed, agreed, agreed.... You've made all very good points. It is about doing the right things better, not doing the wrong things more. It is possible.

[jocko]

I ain't buying the math on the 5 yards stuff. sorry about that.

[Bawanna]

I tend to believe that ole Jocko is playing down his shooting skils a bit here also. I also believe he shoots mostly just for the joy of shooting and not to fine tune his abilitys and that's ok.
I seem to recall he goes to a range by his self, puts out a chair (now that I can relate too) and sits down and casually blast away. Probably not conducive to pin point accuracy out to the horizon and beyond.
I and a few others I think misinterpreted the question also. I read it more as what range do I need to effective at for CCW, not how far can I shoot accurately.
To me theres CCW minimum accuracy and then everything else. I have a TC Contender 30-30 that I use to be able to hit playing cards with at 100 yards. Probably couldn't hit the barn door with it now at 100 but I may break it out and try anyhow just for fun.