SFO Aircraft Accident Tower Audio

[Planedude]

Always a camera filming everything someplace in the world. Way late on the go around attempt, looks like he might have done better pushing it a little over (nose down) to pick up speed. He still would have bashed the landing onto the over-run, but it was the tail strike that doomed him.
Monday morning QB-ing here. Sad for the families that lost the two 16yr olds. My prayer are extended to them.

[Linthead]

There is no love lost between the NTSB and the FAA. If both the ILS and VASI were down, I expect that the NTSB will hang the FAA out to dry.

[cloud]

There is no love lost between the NTSB and the FAA. If both the ILS and VASI were down, I expect that the NTSB will hang the FAA out to dry.

It still should've been a non event .It is not that big of a deal.

[CJB]

No personal experience - but.... San Fran decided to upgrade the ILS system in their most unlikely time to need it. The VASI system being intermittant... .. or down.... thats just plain out wrong. WTF...you can see the VASI like.. maybe 5 miles out at mid day. How about at night? What did they do for approaches at night?

Folks saying this will take six months to a year. I bet they already know all they need to, from the intact recorders. Monday, the politics will begin.

[ltxi]

Always a camera filming everything someplace in the world. Way late on the go around attempt, looks like he might have done better pushing it a little over (nose down) to pick up speed. He still would have bashed the landing onto the over-run, but it was the tail strike that doomed him.
Monday morning QB-ing here. Sad for the families that lost the two 16yr olds. My prayer are extended to them.

Don't believe he was attempting a go around. Until maybe the last few seconds. Until then methinks he was/they were trying to salvage the approach.

I'll back off on my earlier comments re BK help. These be experienced pilots who let themselves get in over their heads. For whatever reason. Still, want fries with that?

[O'Dell]

VASI was down also. "Explains" a lot more/brings some more sense to picture. Best concise summary opinion I've found off av forums. Pretty close to my first thoughts.

"Predictions: Since the ILS and VASI were OTS (out of service) the flying pilot (Captain or First Officer) was flying a visual approach totally "seat of the pants". Flight Data Recorder will indicate an unstabilized approach that began too high at the Final Approach Fix. A higher than rapid descent rate was commanded at an angle higher than the normal 3 degree glide path. In the final 30 seconds Cockpit Voice Recorder will show the Captain and First arguing about the situation until aircraft ended up low and slow with power applied too late to fully recover. In an effort not to land short the flying pilot commanded a nose high attitude and the aircraft struck the breakwater wall short of the runway in a very nose high attitude in a partially stalled (aerodynamically, that is) condition with engines commanded at full power but most likely not yet developing full power due to spool up delay. End of story...."

Sounds like you nailed it. I don't think they'll be able to blame Boeing for this one.

[muggsy]

I'm be assumin' that was facetious.

Not really. I was a mechanic for USAir for about eight years. I can't think of one pilot who deliberately wanted to crash a plane. The Japanese and Germans did it in WWII and the Jehadists did it on 9/11. If you crash a plane through pilot error it's usually your last opportunity to do so. Your either killed or fired. You'll do time in prison if negligence can be proven.

[cloud]

Not really. I was a mechanic for USAir for about eight years. I can't think of one pilot who deliberately wanted to crash a plane. The Japanese and Germans did it in WWII and the Jehadists did it on 9/11. If you crash a plane through pilot error it's usually your last opportunity to do so. Your either killed or fired. You'll do time in prison if negligence can be proven.

I agree, but some of their training is lacking compared to the training we get in the states.

[Longitude Zero]

I agree, but some of their training is lacking compared to the training we get in the states.

That depends upon where and what airline you are talking about. Here in the USA we are no paragon of training for pilots. There have been a plethora of crashes blaimed on poor pilot trianing here in the USA.

As a general rule Far East carriers have equal to or better training than we do. I know for a fact that Cathay Pacific/Qantas/British Airways/Air France have pilot training that way exceeds US standards by a long shot.

As a pilot myself my take is that he was low and slow and that with the stick shaker activation the PIC basically stalled the aircraft as O'Dell posted. Shooting a totally visual landing in a comerciall airliner occurs far more often than folks realize.

[cloud]

That depends upon where and what airline you are talking about. Here in the USA we are no paragon of training for pilots. There have been a plethora of crashes blaimed on poor pilot trianing here in the USA.

As a general rule Far East carriers have equal to or better training than we do. I know for a fact that Cathay Pacific/Qantas/British Airways/Air France have pilot training that way exceeds US standards by a long shot.

As a pilot myself my take is that he was low and slow and that with the stick shaker activation the PIC basically stalled the aircraft as O'Dell posted. Shooting a totally visual landing in a comerciall airliner occurs far more often than folks realize.

I also fly for a living . I'm not talking about the airlines you mentioned .I'm talking about the 3rd world.I agree with you, landing at an airport with no vasi or glide slope should have been a non event.Twice a year we have to show proficiency landing our aircraft with no flaps to an airport runway without any vertical guidance glideslope vasi etc.

[muggsy]

I agree, but some of their training is lacking compared to the training we get in the states.

The first officer who was attempting to land had thousands of hours fling commercial aircraft. This was his first attempt at landing the 777. This was a trans oceanic flight. There were two full flight crews aboard. Coming in over water is a whole different ball game from coming in visual over land. You don't have much in the way of visual reference. That's why Navy pilots are so highly regarded.

[cloud]

The first officer who was attempting to land had thousands of hours fling commercial aircraft. This was his first attempt at landing the 777. This was a trans oceanic flight. There were two full flight crews aboard. Coming in over water is a whole different ball game from coming in visual over land. You don't have much in the way of visual reference. That's why Navy pilots are so highly regarded.

now they are saying the capt. was new to the aircraft and what we call in the states I.O. E. training. Coming in over water to a runway that is11,381x200 feet and is not moving in the day time is not a big deal.Still should have been a non event.

[skiflydive]

VASI was down also. "Explains" a lot more/brings some more sense to picture. Best concise summary opinion I've found off av forums. Pretty close to my first thoughts.

"Predictions: Since the ILS and VASI were OTS (out of service) the flying pilot (Captain or First Officer) was flying a visual approach totally "seat of the pants". Flight Data Recorder will indicate an unstabilized approach that began too high at the Final Approach Fix. A higher than rapid descent rate was commanded at an angle higher than the normal 3 degree glide path. In the final 30 seconds Cockpit Voice Recorder will show the Captain and First arguing about the situation until aircraft ended up low and slow with power applied too late to fully recover. In an effort not to land short the flying pilot commanded a nose high attitude and the aircraft struck the breakwater wall short of the runway in a very nose high attitude in a partially stalled (aerodynamically, that is) condition with engines commanded at full power but most likely not yet developing full power due to spool up delay. End of story...."

Sounds sort of like a controller induced slam dunk approach, ergo the throttles at idle. Come rippin' down from above the 3.00 PAPI glide path trying to intercept can be hard in a Cherokee let alone a 777.

[muggsy]

Latest word from the NTSB was that the glide path taken from radar was normal. If the NTSB runs true to form we won't know for sure exactly what happened for at least a year. I don'r see any point to further speculation.

[skiflydive]

This was his first attempt at landing the 777.

He had previously landed 777's at LAX, Narita, Seoul, and some others, not to mention the simulator landings to get type rated in 777's before actually flying them.