What part of range safety don't you understand?

[Barth]

Barth, have to disagree on the 'concealed permits turned out well' argument. It hasn't.

Twenty plus years ago only a small portion of our population was allowed
to obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon.
The great state of Florida was one of the first.
The scope and nature of these permits have stayed constant for over two decades.
The price for obtaining one has always been reasonable.
And done nothing but drop over the years.
It’s been so clearly successful that something like 35 other states have followed Florida’s lead and adopted like laws.
In fact most honor Florida’s permits in their states as well.
I can literally drive from the Atlantic Ocean, and cross this great country,
all the way to the communist border of Kaliforina legally carrying my firearm.

Modern concealed carry laws work.
And you have always been free to move to a state that has them.
I did.

[Barth]

I'm not saying do away with permits. I think that DOES serve a useful purpose. It filters out folks who shouldn't have firearms from getting them legally.

My issue is with mandatory government run or sanctioned training. It's too easy to tweak it into a ridiculous exercise.

Florida permits have had government required sanctioned training for over twenty years.
It's remained essentially unchanged over that time.
And is anything but a ridiculous exercise.

[Tinman507]

Florida permits have had government required sanctioned training for over twenty years.
It's remained essentially unchanged over that time.
And is anything but a ridiculous exercise.

It's remained unchanged for 20 years because the folks who generate laws are mostly pro-carry. If that changed next year, you can't guarantee it won't change and become a ridiculous exercise.

[Barth]

It's remained unchanged for 20 years because the folks who generate laws are mostly pro-carry. If that changed next year, you can't guarantee it won't change and become a ridiculous exercise.

The only thing I can guarantee is death and taxes.
But I can demonstrate a positive twenty year trend.
And have no reason to believe that trend will change going forward.

No one knows what the future holds.
But in Florida the future looks bright to me.

[Tinman507]

You win.

[Barth]

You win.

I'm at work and blocked from your picture.
Of which I'm sure is a back handed response - LOL.

But as we say in Football - "A win is a win!"
So I'll take the W even if it's not heart felt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would like to say that this forum seems to have better educated/informed members than many.
I really do respect most of your opinions - whether I agree with them or not.
And completely understand folks reservations with anything government
mandated and controlled.

I'm a huge advocate of as small a government as possible.
With the most freedom possible for the individual.
Particularly involving carrying and owning firearms for self defense.

[b4uqzme]

Sorry Barth. You are welcome to your opinion and that is part of my notion of freedom. But you do not win. After this I will let it rest. You are welcome to go on.

Chrish's point was that concealed carry laws are still an infringement because some states use them to create unreasonable hoops for good citizens to jump through. Indeed they are a good example of how some states will use any regulation to create barriers against gun ownership.

You debate that, compared to before, CCW permits are a success but you miss one important point. CCW permits are a move from almost no one being allowed to carry (too strict a law) to anyone who can meet the requirements can carry (a relaxed law). That's less regulation, more freedom for gun owners and that's good. The next move forward would be to eliminate carry restrictions altogether. We aren't holding our breath for that one.

Back to mandatory gun safety education. You advocate more regulation = less freedom for gun owners. History shows us that more regulation, even for good causes, typically backfires. We won't stand for that. If you need more explanation why...just re-read this post. Or most anything in our politics and rkba forums.

Thanks for the discussion. We'll let the other members make up their own minds. It's good to talk these through.

[Barth]

I Win, I Win!

Sorry Barth. You are welcome to your opinion and that is part of my notion of freedom. But you do not win. After this I will let it rest. You are welcome to go on.

Chrish's point was that concealed carry laws are still an infringement because some states use them to create unreasonable hoops for good citizens to jump through. Indeed they are a good example of how some states will use any regulation to create barriers against gun ownership.

You are free to live in any state you want.
If you choose to live in a repressive state?
That choice is on you.

You debate that, compared to before, CCW permits are a success but you miss one important point. CCW permits are a move from almost no one being allowed to carry (too strict a law) to anyone who can meet the requirements can carry (a relaxed law). That's less regulation, more freedom for gun owners and that's good. The next move forward would be to eliminate carry restrictions altogether. We aren't holding our breath for that one.

I didn't miss one important point.
That is my point.

Back to mandatory gun safety education. You advocate more regulation = less freedom for gun owners. History shows us that more regulation, even for good causes, typically backfires. We won't stand for that. If you need more explanation why...just re-read this post. Or most anything in our politics and rkba forums.

Concealed carry laws haven’t backfired.
And have clearly been successful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I absolutely win.
This isn't a contest.
It’s a sharing of information.
And in that context everyone wins!

[chrish]

Twenty plus years ago only a small portion of our population was allowed
to obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon.
The great state of Florida was one of the first.
The scope and nature of these permits have stayed constant for over two decades.
The price for obtaining one has always been reasonable.
And done nothing but drop over the years.
It’s been so clearly successful that something like 35 other states have followed Florida’s lead and adopted like laws.
In fact most honor Florida’s permits in their states as well.
I can literally drive from the Atlantic Ocean, and cross this great country,
all the way to the communist border of Kaliforina legally carrying my firearm.

Modern concealed carry laws work.
And you have always been free to move to a state that has them.
I did.

That's not entirely true. Shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's been a long hard battle from not allowed, to may issue, to shall issue fights. I shouldn't have to pay the government to carry a piece of my own private property. 20 years from now, we'll be saying the permit we have to get health care coverage from a doctor outside of our government approved single-payer provider is a good idea to keep costs down. Won't make it right, or constitutional.

But, you (being from Florida) cannot visit 15+ states (firearm in tow) by my count. Hard to count all those tiny little specs in the northeast. The entire west coast, most of the northeast, and great lakes area. My Virginia permit is a bit more limiting, I can't even GET to Florida w/o circling around. I want reciprocity, but not at the expense of having the feds involved.

But the point here was requiring safety training to even own a gun, much less carry it. I'm just not gonna agree. When they start charging you 'per barrel'...you are gonna wish you listened to me

[Barth]

That's not entirely true. Shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's been a long hard battle from not allowed, to may issue, to shall issue fights. I shouldn't have to pay the government to carry a piece of my own private property. 20 years from now, we'll be saying the permit we have to get health care coverage from a doctor outside of our government approved single-payer provider is a good idea to keep costs down. Won't make it right, or constitutional.

You’re paying a reasonable fee for administration, background checks and licensing.
It’s been in place for twenty years and works great.

But, you (being from Florida) cannot visit 15+ states (firearm in tow) by my count. Hard to count all those tiny little specs in the northeast. The entire west coast, most of the northeast, and great lakes area. My Virginia permit is a bit more limiting, I can't even GET to Florida w/o circling around. I want reciprocity, but not at the expense of having the feds involved.

If parts of the country demand I’m unarmed?
I’m fine with that and choose not to go there.

But the point here was requiring safety training to even own a gun, much less carry it. I'm just not gonna agree. When they start charging you 'per barrel'...you are gonna wish you listened to me

Having folks demonstrate they understand the four basic rules of gun safety prior to ownership just makes sense.
That’s the point where gun safety education needs to take place.
Not after someone gets shot.

It’s really that simple.

[berettabone]

Alright, I'll bite..................do I think you should be charged to carry your firearm? No. Do I think that there should be a mandatory safety class or other such exercise, before you can get a CCW license. No. BUT, in saying that, I see way too many people in my neck of the woods, who don't have a clue, as far as safely using or carrying a firearm. I feel that a better approach, is what I had to do to get my CCW license. This is not mandatory in my state. You have to do a qualifying shoot. Simple as that. Everyone there had to in a way, prove that they could safely handle that firearm. This is the way they handled the class, which was fine for me. Muzzle anyone, and you're gone. As far as the rest of the people who don't care to have a permit, and go to the ranges, it's a very slippery slope. As far as I am concerned, one screwup at the range, and you're gone. Make it known that any safety issue caused by you will result in your never coming back again. I really doubt, with the amount of shooters up here, that the business would lose any customers. But all of the ranges would need to put their heads together on this, to make all ranges safety conscious. Fools need not apply....................

[Bawanna]

I'm confused. You say it's not required but you have to do a qualifying shoot?

Can't be both.

Class's should be readily available and recommended, people renting guns at ranges should be screened, they usually are at the ones I frequent.
It's a private business, they can do what they want.

Mandatory. NOT!

[berettabone]

With this particular instructor, yes, but the state doesn't make this mandatory.........it's something that he does on his own..........and I like it. There are plenty of courses here where you don't have to do this, but I think it's a good idea. Everyone knows up front that this will be part of the class.

[Planedude]

Only nice thing about the Texas permit is it speeds up gun buying. Show your permit, no waiting for the background check, just pay-n-go.

Shouldn't have to show anything, but we have to close the old "gunshow loophole"... right?

[garyb]

Alright, I'll bite..................do I think you should be charged to carry your firearm? No. Do I think that there should be a mandatory safety class or other such exercise, before you can get a CCW license. No. BUT, in saying that, I see way too many people in my neck of the woods, who don't have a clue, as far as safely using or carrying a firearm. I feel that a better approach, is what I had to do to get my CCW license. This is not mandatory in my state. You have to do a qualifying shoot. Simple as that. Everyone there had to in a way, prove that they could safely handle that firearm. This is the way they handled the class, which was fine for me. Muzzle anyone, and you're gone. As far as the rest of the people who don't care to have a permit, and go to the ranges, it's a very slippery slope. As far as I am concerned, one screwup at the range, and you're gone. Make it known that any safety issue caused by you will result in your never coming back again. I really doubt, with the amount of shooters up here, that the business would lose any customers. But all of the ranges would need to put their heads together on this, to make all ranges safety conscious. Fools need not apply....................

Confusing and you contradict yourself. It is simple...just teach people how to handle a gun before they put one in their hands. Once they learn, they are good to go. Qualifying is a good idea. Demonstrate good gun handling and you're ready to own. Don't be wishy washy about it. Some guys want gun owners to be competent, but at the same time they don't want them to receive mandatory training. Another sign of being wishy washy. I say train. Education is good. Don't make it bad just because it is mandatory to be a safe gun owner. What's the deal? If more gun owners had training and learned something...demonstrated via competence qualifying, there would be fewer gun safety issues. Don't get wrapped up in "principle" that you don't like mandatory training....just because. Accept the benefits and teach people how to handle guns. It is to the gun owner's advantage.