no licence to conceal carry? thoughts/opinions welcome

[berettabone]

Sure and you can buy a gun and walk out with it, but otoh, if the State decided to confiscate guns, they have a ready made list of gun owners, who they KNOW has guns and will go there 1st. Btw, you get a background check when you buy the gun. So what other freedoms are we prepared to give up for the sake of safety. What's the saying? Those that are willing to give up freedoms for the sake of safety, deserve neither. Here's my thing, no matter what kind of training they've had or not had, or whatever card they have or don't have, I really don't care, if I'm out and about and anyone does something stupid around me, like pull a gun or be careless with a gun, etc., I'm going to give them two options, right then: 1. hand me the gun, right now or 2. I'll take it off their bleeding or dead body and they have about 2 seconds to decide. IF they choose #1, I'll empty it and hand it back to them, reprimanding them for their stupidity and invite them to get far away from me. If they do NOT choose #1, IDK, they all of a sudden pulled a gun on me and it's self defense. Other than that, life will go on as usual. Btw, what "required training" are you talking about? 4 hrs of class and then go out back and shoot a .22? My DW took a CCL class last week and they shot simunitions, indoors and each took 4 shots. I wouldn't call that anything. Weapon manipulation is a fraction of the responsibility of a CCW. In my house, we carry all day, every day, everywhere and have dry fire practice every day( except Sunday), mandatory (or else, whom ever misses 2 days in a row, their guns get locked up and they may not carry, until they agree to get with the program or decide to not carry at all). We have a range on the property and practice live fire 3 times a week- shooting while moving, running to and shooting from cover, tac reloads, multiple targets, malfunctions, etc. Btw, I let my CCL expire 15 yrs ago. Concealed means concealed. Same as raising children. Alot of folks think that public schools are supposed to give their kids an education. I say no way, their REAL education is at home- life lessons. We raised 3 kids that way, they now have their own families. YMMV

Most people don't do what you do. They don't train, they don't qualify shoot, they just carry. You might or might not be surprised at how many people carry a firearm that they have never shot. Your 2 options are what get people shot. No one is going to hand you their loaded firearm. Take it off their bleeding body? Really?

[Bawanna]

Or have property they can shoot on. That would help immensely. Sure beats a hours drive to an indoor range where a big headed range officer will jump down your throat if you pull the gun out of it's holster too quickly. Or in some instances where a holster at all. Must be in a bag.

[deadear dan]

Mixed feelings. This should be a right to citizens who are not felons or mentally disturbed, however when I read of a hysterical woman grabbing her pistol from her purse, running and shooting after shoplifters I have to come to the conclusion that some training is in order. One should know the law and the responsibility of gun ownership, otherwise it threatens the rights of the 99.9% of CCW carriers who live and play by the rules.

[CCHGN]

This discussion mirrors the gun ownership argument: either it's constitutional or not. The 2A says that our rights cannot be infringed. That implies for any reason. It's up to the individual to act responsibly. Violators should be punished. But only after they abuse their freedoms.

A very wise man once told me (he owned car dealerships) that the best value was either the least expensive variant of a model or the most loaded up. Everything in between is a compromise. The same is true with politics. Either you want freedom or your want government control. Everything in between means that someone has to decide where to draw the line. Sounds like that is what we are discussing here: where to draw the line. Who gets to decide how much of our freedoms are an acceptable sacrifice?

Well I'm not sure the car dealership has anything to do with this. Luckily we have the best system in the World and Human History. Who decides? That's easy- let the Constitution decide. What does it say? The Constitution was designed to reflect the sentiments of the current society, while at the same time guaranteeing several unalienable rights. When the Constitution was ratified, women couldn't vote or own land, etc and folks could own slaves, that was American Society at that time. All that changed, as Society changed. At one time, Society said that alcohol should be banned, but hen realized the error of that idea. That also made folks realize another thing: Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide? How far can Govt go? The answers are in the Constitution. Women couldn't vote, they took to the streets. One thing the Constitution does is allows "We the People" to address grievances and injustices, but there is a set protocol- a significant number of citizens have to agree that something is wrong. A petition is the way. They get enough signatures and the Govt HAS to address the grievance and so a law gets passed and things change. We'd realized that there ARE limits to our rights, but there IS a line. By now, MOST of the lines have been established. We can't yell fire in a crowded theater, but we still have freedom of speech and assembly and protest, etc. We can't own Nukes and Fighter Jets, but we can still keep and bear arms. The issue here is, the 2A says the right to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed", so THAT is the line. So what does "infringe" mean? The act of limiting, restricting, curbing encroaching on, eroding , diminishing, impairing, etc. SO, ANY law that does that, is wrong. So, the law that says you can NOT carry ( bear arms) without govt permission, is wrong. THAT is infringement.

[CCHGN]

Most people don't do what you do. They don't train, they don't qualify shoot, they just carry. You might or might not be surprised at how many people carry a firearm that they have never shot. Your 2 options are what get people shot. No one is going to hand you their loaded firearm. Take it off their bleeding body? Really?

Well I just don't believe that that many folks will go to the trouble to decide to carry a gun, go to a gun shop, fill out the paper work, have a background check, buy a gun and ammo and a holster and change their clothes and life style, etc to carry and not shoot. Not at LEAST go to a range and shoot. I think you'd be surprised how many DO get training. I've been shooting IDPA for over 15 yrs and see ALL kinds of folks shooting: old folks,,men and women, ALL ages, A LOT of women, all sizes, all backgrounds, all races, all professions, etc.. Folks you'd see on the street and NEVER guess that not only are they carrying, but are very proficient. Hmmm, so you don't like my 2 rules. Let me ask you, why do you carry? At what point are you going to shoot someone? Do you have some set ideas? What do they have to do before you'll shoot them? What? Shoot other folks? Shoot at you? Wave the gun around, hit someone with it? What? So if a person pulls a gun next to you, you won't do anything? Why not? Why wait for them to shoot you? OR are you saying that you'll just shoot them dead, no questions asked? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they had a brain fart and very little training ( like you claim) and just don't know any better, that's not something to die over. So, say you DO shoot them, are you going to just let their pistol stay in their hand, or lay there next to them? Why? Maybe they could still shoot you. IDK, we definitely have different views on reality. YMMV

[CCHGN]

Or have property they can shoot on. That would help immensely. Sure beats a hours drive to an indoor range where a big headed range officer will jump down your throat if you pull the gun out of it's holster too quickly. Or in some instances where a holster at all. Must be in a bag.

LOL all the more reason to get involved in competition shooting, where you get to do all that stuff....lol When I first started, we lived in town and had a small yard.The IDPA is set up to mimic real life scenarios and the stages are set up that way, so that you have to negotiate different obstacles that you would out there. From concealment, shooting guns that you carry. IPSC and USPSA is purely run and gun- shooting as many rounds as you can, as fast as you can, with guns all tricked out with bells and whistles, over sized mags and optics, etc....

[berettabone]

Well I just don't believe that that many folks will go to the trouble to decide to carry a gun, go to a gun shop, fill out the paper work, have a background check, buy a gun and ammo and a holster and change their clothes and life style, etc to carry and not shoot. Not at LEAST go to a range and shoot. I think you'd be surprised how many DO get training. I've been shooting IDPA for over 15 yrs and see ALL kinds of folks shooting: old folks,,men and women, ALL ages, A LOT of women, all sizes, all backgrounds, all races, all professions, etc.. Folks you'd see on the street and NEVER guess that not only are they carrying, but are very proficient. Hmmm, so you don't like my 2 rules. Let me ask you, why do you carry? At what point are you going to shoot someone? Do you have some set ideas? What do they have to do before you'll shoot them? What? Shoot other folks? Shoot at you? Wave the gun around, hit someone with it? What? So if a person pulls a gun next to you, you won't do anything? Why not? Why wait for them to shoot you? OR are you saying that you'll just shoot them dead, no questions asked? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they had a brain fart and very little training ( like you claim) and just don't know any better, that's not something to die over. So, say you DO shoot them, are you going to just let their pistol stay in their hand, or lay there next to them? Why? Maybe they could still shoot you. IDK, we definitely have different views on reality. YMMV

You are correct, we do have different views on reality. First off, many, many people decide to carry a firearm. They DON"T go to a gun shop or fill out any paperwork. Heard of Armslist? Heard of gun shows? No paperwork here. No back round check here. Private sale here. Skip right to carry. If you think that everyone follows your purchase rules, you're living in dreamland. I can guarantee you that more people DO NOT get training than do. They also don't change their way of dress or their lifestyle. I used to belong to a shooting club. I quit because of IDPA. The range was never available to people who weren't interested in that type of shooting. They wanted to cater to the IDPA, and that's fine, but they lost a bunch of income by doing so. I have my own set of rules as far as safety and shooting. Every situation is different. If I am in a gun store/shop and someone muzzles me, you bet that I am going to say something immediately. If they are aiming a rifle around the store, and it comes in my direction, I am going to say something immediately, and I have. Cabela's, Dicks, Gander Mt. etc, great places to get muzzled. As far as shooting someone, every situation is different, and I will have to go with it if s#!t happens. If you get muzzled in a store, are you going to use your 2 rules? Go take it out of their hand, or shoot them in the store and take it off of their bleeding dead body? Crazy talk. Everyone understands IDPA, and the rest of the shooting groups. You would never get an argument from me, joining and shooting with any of these groups. I'm telling you that most folks don't train period. I've been shooting firearms for 45+ years, and have seen what people do, and what they don't do. If you think the majority of handgun owners are training, you're in la la land. We have open carry up here, have had it for ages. If you want to open carry, you can without paying a dime, or getting ANY training. Conceal carry without a license and you will go to jail. You would be breaking the law up here. Personally, I wouldn't associate with anyone who is breaking the law. Whether they think they're an expert or not.

[berettabone]

BTW, I have a place in the woods where I can shoot whenever I please, handguns or rifle. The people in the city do not, and do not want to pay $15-25 dollars an hour to rent a booth, so they don't train, they don't practice. Carry, squeeze, and pray. We have lots of gun shows and had Badger Guns. I used to watch the pink fingernails come in and purchase for their boyfriend, or buy for themselves by the hundreds. I guarantee that none of them EVER practiced or trained.

[Bawanna]

Just an FYI, here in Washington, there are no more private undocumented transfers. Armslist, Gunbroker, private sales all have to go through an FFL for a transfer. Stupid law and for the most part not enforced.
Our gun shows only members can purchase and those now also have to go through an FFL. There are tables with FFLs just for that purpose at the shows. Usually transfers are only 10 bucks at the show.

Really stupid law but we're so close to California with so many transplants I guess we're lucky it's not worse than it is.

[CCHGN]

You are correct, we do have different views on reality. First off, many, many people decide to carry a firearm. They DON"T go to a gun shop or fill out any paperwork. .

Listen, you keep making claims and we could do this all day long. You didn't answer any of my questions, so this is not a conversation. How about some REAL statistics or empirical data or something more scientific. OR, let it go. YOU can live up there in Sody land and I can be happy here in the Sunshine State. ALL I know is what I see here in Florida. I don't know how you can know ALL those "many, many" people who have NEVER handled a gun, never shot a gun, but all of a sudden, just buy a gun and carry it, with not one second of training. Btw, you're crossing the line over to personal attack, which shows your immaturity, so maybe you should take a break. Lastly, I have a Constitutional right not to follow an unContitutional law., so...YMMV

[Bawanna]

I choose "let it go".

Have a pleasant afternoon and a better tomorrow.