Reagan and assault rifles

[knkali]

I think you are a little too close to the issue this time knkali. You know I agree with you 99.44% of the time but hiring illegals is the core of the problem. And those responsible for hiring them should do their part in the fix. It's not a burden but rather their obligation.

I've kinda hi-jacked the thread to soap-box one of my pet issues. Hope nobody minds...

No hijack felt here. I post stuff for an exchange of ideas and thoughts without personal attacks--wherever the thread goes. . If someone isn't in agreement, I like an exchange of dialog where there could be a chance for a change in opinion. You are right...I am too close to the issue. I am a businessman who has the job of making money in an increasingly difficult environment to do so. My primary function is to hire people and have them make money to pay taxes so I can do the same. I support, and my employees support the G to do things. When I pay the G AND I also have to be the enforcer or agent of the G to solve problems that I pay the G to prevent, THAT is a poor investment of my(our) money. When I am faced with fines and penalties levied by the G if I fail to be their hatchet man, the fiduciary relationship I originally had with the G changes and then becomes an abuse of power and unethical IMHO. I would rather have the problem solved at the border where it was intended to be in the first place(duties of the G to have and maintain a secure border is outlined in the constitution) rather than have that financial and logistical burden placed on my shoulders as a businessman. In short, if you have a border problem. Fix the border. Don't have American entrepreneurs and businessmen fix it for you AFTER the fact. However, if you want the game to be perpetuated---knowing that the border and illegals will never be fixed and the border will leak all the time so that more money can be extruded from the American businessman in penalties and fines as to provide yet another income stream for the G, then your position makes sense to me. I know I am being redundant so I'll stop now. You don't have to though. I want to be on your side on this issue. Please say something more to help me get there...........

[knkali]

I welcome all views, but if someone leans left I believe that they should just come out of the closet and admit to being a leftist. I stand up for what I believe in and say what's on my mind. There will never be any doubt in anyone's mind as to where I stand on any issue. It ain't my yard, b4uqzme, I'm just a guest here like everyone else.

Calling someone who has a view on a subject that "leans" left a "closet leftist" is over reaching nor is it welcoming other views by any stretch of the imagination. How you can have those two sentiments in one sentence and believe it to be true seems delusional unless your definition of "welcoming" is very obtuse for the norm.

[b4uqzme]

Thanks knkali. You and I just have a differing view of the point of the problem. You see it at the border and I see it at the hiring desk. The border agents are definitely the hatchet men not the businessman. But if businessmen keep hiring illegals, if we keep giving them free education and healthcare, no amount of investment at the border will work. That's why this problem persists after all these years.

[b4uqzme]

P.S. I too am all for releasing the chokehold regulations currently have on American (small) businesses. And I am not an advocate for any new regulation regarding illegals. A long time ago someone recognized my point and put in place penalties for those who encourage illegals by hiring them. I just say enforce those.

[b4uqzme]

It's ironic that the video mentions "magnet" at the end yet totally misses the point. The magnet is the American Dream. Where we've driven off course is encouraging immigrants to pursue the dream illegally.

[Bawanna]

And don't forget if you don't hire them even if illegal everyone considers you a racist.

I'm all for putting a stop to G putting the screws to small business anyway they can. Use em as stepping stones or door mats.

[berettabone]

I welcome all views, but if someone leans left I believe that they should just come out of the closet and admit to being a leftist. I stand up for what I believe in and say what's on my mind. There will never be any doubt in anyone's mind as to where I stand on any issue. It ain't my yard, b4uqzme, I'm just a guest here like everyone else.

Sometimes, you just have to mow the lawn....................................

[muggsy]

I've been mowing my own lawn my entire life. I just don't like it when someone tries to tear down the one man who did more to restore the people's faith in this country in the last thirty years than anyone who has come after him, particularly when they take one quote out of context to make their point. One should view the man's entire record and not just one small fragment of it.

[Tilos]

Thank you for asking. I used Reagan because many here would consider him the gold standard to measure future POTUS, The man is dead, but what I am trying to illuminate is that over 30 years later, we are still working on the same issues, and that both political parties seems to talk out of both sides of their mouths. What is favorable to one party seems to be contra 30 years later and visa versa. While there are some fundamental differences between the parties, the differences seems to be lessening more and more. Same coin, two different sides. While I am fundamentally happy that we (conservatives)regained both houses, I am not sure how effective the ultimate change will be in the end.

"I am not sure how effective the ultimate change will be in the end"
Well, I guess if you need something to worry about, that's a good one
Not me though

[knkali]

"I am not sure how effective the ultimate change will be in the end"
Well, I guess if you need something to worry about, that's a good one
Not me though

I am not trying to be flippant here. Respectfully, what does worry you when it comes to our G?

[knkali]

Thanks knkali. You and I just have a differing view of the point of the problem. You see it at the border and I see it at the hiring desk. The border agents are definitely the hatchet men not the businessman. But if businessmen keep hiring illegals, if we keep giving them free education and healthcare, no amount of investment at the border will work. That's why this problem persists after all these years.

Ok I think I got it. You see this as a two prong attack to the problem. Being the realist you are,( no sarcasm intended here!) you know that the border problem is not completely fixable so the employment aspect of the illegal problem needs to be addressed as a stop gap. Kind of wearing belt and suspenders? If my words in your mouth are accurate, then I completely agree. However, what have we really done with the border to fix it? IMHO nothing much. How about we really try to fix the border first(that is if you agree we haven't done much there yet). Would you agree with me on that? If so, here is my stretch......how about we try that first before we put this "burden" on American businesses rather than playing that card from the start and risk damaging an already struggling business climate in this country. After all we might not need it and the cost for enforcement and oversight of same could be averted. I am stretching here. I know I might be pushing you too hard here. Not my intention to make an enemy here. Would you go this far with me on this matter? My argument falls apart if you feel that the border can never be secure enough or we have tried everything already.

[knkali]

It's ironic that the video mentions "magnet" at the end yet totally misses the point. The magnet is the American Dream. Where we've driven off course is encouraging immigrants to pursue the dream illegally.

Huge statement right there. Thank you for reminding me of it. I think that's a topic I need help with finding my viewpoint. How DID we get here?

[b4uqzme]

Ok I think I got it. You see this as a two prong attack to the problem. Being the realist you are,( no sarcasm intended here!) you know that the border problem is not completely fixable so the employment aspect of the illegal problem needs to be addressed as a stop gap. Kind of wearing belt and suspenders? If my words in your mouth are accurate, then I completely agree. However, what have we really done with the border to fix it? IMHO nothing much. How about we really try to fix the border first(that is if you agree we haven't done much there yet). Would you agree with me on that? If so, here is my stretch......how about we try that first before we put this "burden" on American businesses rather than playing that card from the start and risk damaging an already struggling business climate in this country. After all we might not need it and the cost for enforcement and oversight of same could be averted. I am stretching here. I know I might be pushing you too hard here. Not my intention to make an enemy here. Would you go this far with me on this matter? My argument falls apart if you feel that the border can never be secure enough or we have tried everything already.

close but not quite.

What I'm really saying...as simply as I can put it...is that hiring illegal immigrants is...well...illegal. Stop it!...and you'll be amazed how much of the problem fixes itself.

Think about your economics...how the natural forces of market equilibrium cause free markets to run themselves. Remember the lesson of the pencil? Society is like that too. Look for what is out of balance. And for the solution that capitalizes upon what motivates people naturally. Build a wall and people will climb it if they are motivated enough. Take away their reason for being here and you can invite them over and they still won't come. Why do you think the border problem only goes one way?

[b4uqzme]

Huge statement right there. Thank you for reminding me of it. I think that's a topic I need help with finding my viewpoint. How DID we get here?

Because for decades we've always looked at the result (the thing we don't like) and tried to fix that instead of looking for what caused it.

[knkali]

close but not quite.

What I'm really saying...as simply as I can put it...is that hiring illegal immigrants is...well...illegal. Stop it!...and you'll be amazed how much of the problem fixes itself.

Think about your economics...how the natural forces of market equilibrium cause free markets to run themselves. Remember the lesson of the pencil? Society is like that too. Look for what is out of balance. And for the solution that capitalizes upon what motivates people naturally. Build a wall and people will climb it if they are motivated enough. Take away their reason for being here and you can invite them over and they still won't come. Why do you think the border problem only goes one way?

I know of The Pencil Story from Dr. Friedman in one of his lectures on the net. I also feel that the timbre of Dr. F's books and lectures espouse the myriad of problems when we implement fines and penalties to groups of people(small business) as a means to make changes in behavior(social) or in the way commerce/market can take place. In fact, he often reports that the consequences of such actions can have great unforeseen economic impacts that were never intended and ultimately hurt the very thing we are trying to protect. Furthermore, when something is deemed illegal, it only sucks the life out of the economy by growing the G in forming agencies for oversight, enforcement and collection of such. Since the G only takes and does not produce any goods or services, nothing good can come from this. Consequently, this could be why the existing laws regarding the hiring of illegals has not been strongly enforced nor embraced? Therefore, in keeping with Dr. Friedman's views, it would be better to thwart illegals at the border than do anything to the business community. How was that? Maybe a bit too reaching? I am trying hard to defend my position here. At least give me that.. Hey Dr. F said this through me. Blame him hahha Promise this will be my last retort. In advance, thanks for the back and forth. I enjoyed it.