Another reason why we NEED the Keystone XL Pipeline

[Longitude Zero]

How many? 2000 during construction and 50-100 ongoing? Hardly an impressive number in the grand scheme of things. IBM employs 400k. JPMorganChase has 230k. Walmart employs 1.5 million. Pick a bigger project if you want to impress me with economic impact.

Even at your numbers, and I am NOT saying they are accurate, they are far more that Barcracker Odumbassholes "Shovel Ready" jobs program that everybody with two or more living brains cells knows was a fraud from the beginning. Oh yeah for those employed it is a HUGE economic impact. ScottM if you lost your job it would be a MAJOR economic impact on you. So to talk about lack of economic impact is disengenous at best.

[ScottM]

Even at your numbers, and I am NOT saying they are accurate, they are far more that Barcracker Odumbassholes "Shovel Ready" jobs program that everybody with two or more living brains cells knows was a fraud from the beginning. Oh yeah for those employed it is a HUGE economic impact. ScottM if you lost your job it would be a MAJOR economic impact on you. So to talk about lack of economic impact is disengenous at best.

Not disingenuous, just unemotional - that's what statistics are. My numbers are as accurate (or not) as the dozen or more different estimates we've heard since this all started. So why do they change each time? I haven't a clue - maybe JohnR has a theory. Maybe it's because they're bullpucky and will be Shell-gamed at least a dozen more times before it's over. You'll latch onto the high range, and opponents will latch onto the low range, and neither will be accurate in the end. But still policy will be decided based on subjective, emotional feelings, as most posts here reinforce.

I wasn't surprised to hear you ("disingenuously at best") complain about how little the prez has delivered. In fact, the CBO estimated that the Shovel-Ready program, while vastly underperforming the president's estimates still delivered 600k jobs. Now, I only got to calculus 2 and Diff Eq, but 600k sounds bigger than 100-200 and even 2k, so you you might want to use a better example, particularly since unemployment has plummeted since Bush left office, manufacturing productivity per worker is at an all-time high and consumer confidence is way greater, but you'll pick and choose economic indicators to justify your anti-presidential expletives - I know this. It's part of your charm. [emoji28]

Funny - as soon as I hit "reply" I knew it was a matter of time until someone used the specious and populist argument of "all impacts are major to the ones with/without jobs." Of course they are; liberals use that argument all the time, right? So, I wonder if you'll be as generously empathetic to those forced by governmental eminent domain to yield their land rights for the pipeline, and to those forced to deal with spills on their land when they occur (believing they can't is a fool's faith in human infallibility). I wonder if you will be so cavalier to citizens whose livestock can't graze and their crops won't grow? Or will you shake it off and place the sins of government-manipulated-by-industry to the feet of an official who today opposes this project?

[muggsy]

Both employment and unemployment have a snowball effect. There are still 30 million Americans unemployed or underemployed thanks to Obama and his policies. The permanent underclass and their something for nothing mentality is what keeps democrats in power. If you won't be happy until the government controls all jobs and the means of production move to N. Korea, Scott.

[ScottM]

Another reason why we NEED the Keystone XL Pipeline

Both employment and unemployment have a snowball effect. There are still 30 million Americans unemployed or underemployed thanks to Obama and his policies. The permanent underclass and their something for nothing mentality is what keeps democrats in power. If you won't be happy until the government controls all jobs and the means of production move to N. Korea, Scott.

Now you're really reaching Muggsy. A good number of those jobs you're talking about were lost due to the snowball effects of the financial crash of 2008 when financial deregulation chickens came home to roost, as well as to foreign labor markets where it's ok to pay someone $5-10k/yr for factory jobs for the pleasure of cheap goods here in America. Don't blame liberals for the Buy American-stickered pickup truck in your local Walmart parking lot.

Your post reveals exactly what I'm talking about. You've drawn a direct, emotional connection between XL, 30 million jobs, permanent underclass, state-run employment and North Korea. And I thought you weren't a conspiracist.

[Ron AZ]

… particularly since unemployment has plummeted since Bush left office

Scott,
62.8% labor participation rate was the latest number under Obama. Lowest since the 1970's. When are you going to get that they are cooking the unemployment rate books? People who want to work being driven into part time underemployment. Opening up SS Disability to anyone who is "overstressed" because they can not find a job. People who want good jobs but are so discouraged about lack of availability they give up looking. And finally a segment who finds they can get everything free, so they don't need a job.

[Longitude Zero]

Funny - as soon as I hit "reply" I knew it was a matter of time until someone used the specious and populist argument of "all impacts are major to the ones with/without jobs." Of course they are; liberals use that argument all the time, right? So, I wonder if you'll be as generously empathetic to those forced by governmental eminent domain to yield their land rights for the pipeline, and to those forced to deal with spills on their land when they occur (believing they can't is a fool's faith in human infallibility). I wonder if you will be so cavalier to citizens whose livestock can't graze and their crops won't grow? Or will you shake it off and place the sins of government-manipulated-by-industry to the feet of an official who today opposes this project?

Statistics can be easily manipulated to suit the agenda of the poster. 600K new jobs from shovel ready projects, LOL. The CBO is supposed to be non-partisan but even the Dems have complained about it issuing partisan opinions during the Bush years. Now they are just returning the favor. It is foolish to depend upon ANY and ALL numbers from DC. Has been for decades. You have outted yourself as a Kool Aid Drinker if you believe that more folks are working now than under Bush. That false belief indicates a person who is only working with two living brain cells. Unemployed numbers are FAR HIGHER under the current administration. Even Ed of MSNBC has admitted that and he/like you is a government lover. I am not anti President I am anti Democrat/Liberal/America Hating/Socialist etc. Consumer confidence is higher. Moronic thought period. If that is true why is business and industry holding onto over 5 Trillion dollars and not spending it. Here is THE answer. They have NO CONFIDENCE in the consumer market because it is way DOWN.

I thought you had a clue that the pipeline is buried and so the uneducated comment about losing land. The topcover does not go anywhere it remains for the usage of the landowner. Your crops won't grow and cattle won't grow comments show a profound stupidity of reality of farm and country life, living with the reality of an underground pipeline. I would guess you have never been on a farm or probably even seen a farm up close. My family owns land with pipelines underneath the dirt. We have had ZERO problems for decades and the cattle still grave over it and crops grow. You bemoan the pipeline but you still drive a car that consumes gasoline. There is a word that describe folks like that, hypocrite. Until you give up all products produced by petroleum products you have no credibility. People of your ilk obviously genuflect to Soros, Gore and all the other modern progress haters. I enjoy your trying to counter-point and the fact that you are the solo liberal/government trusting/government lover here on this site.

Truth be told you will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I merely am pointing the obvious and inarguable about the pipeline.

[downtownv]

Follow the money dears, Warren Buffet owns those trains, he sure as hell doesn't want no stink in' Pipeline.
Besides the keystone would cause environmental damage, that spilling oil all over America doesn't. Hunh?

[ScottM]

There's no better indicator of a weak position than when a debater uses logical fallacies (especially ad-hominems) as their primary technique. Let's see if LZ falls into this category...

Statistics can be easily manipulated to suit the agenda of the poster. 600K new jobs from shovel ready projects, LOL. The CBO is supposed to be non-partisan but even the Dems have complained about it issuing partisan opinions during the Bush years. Now they are just returning the favor. It is foolish to depend upon ANY and ALL numbers from DC. Has been for decades.

A straw man since 600k still is a long way from 100-200 and even 2000 by my math. Funny too, because through that same logic no number from DC is trustworthy, and yet you're an advocate of the pipeline because of purported economic benefits that come from... DC! It would be funny if not tragic for the irony.

You have outted yourself as a Kool Aid Drinker

"Kool Aid Drinker" - an ad-hominem intended to discredit an opponent by suggesting they're incapable of thinking for themselves. Classically used by those not wishing to debate the points at hand.

if you believe that more folks are working now than under Bush. That false belief indicates a person who is only working with two living brain cells.

"Two living brain cells" - character smearing implying that the opponent is mentally deficient.

Unemployed numbers are FAR HIGHER under the current administration. Even Ed of MSNBC has admitted that and he/like you is a government lover.

An ad-hominem using the "guilt by association" sub-category. Also a failure of attribution.

I am not anti President I am anti Democrat/Liberal/America Hating/Socialist etc. Consumer confidence is higher. Moronic thought period.

"Moronic thought period" {ironically without proper grammar} - more character smearing implying that the opponent is mentally deficient.

If that is true why is business and industry holding onto over 5 Trillion dollars and not spending it. Here is THE answer. They have NO CONFIDENCE in the consumer market because it is way DOWN.

Failure of attribution, but you got me on that one. Consumer confidence has regained a lot since 2008 but still remains below 2007 levels. The news isn't all bad, but we do have a long way to go. Where I'm live, the economy is definitely on the upswing. Business borrowing is up. Property values are coming back. Again, it's not where it needs to be, but we're a far cry from 2007, 30% higher than it was at the outset of the Iraq war and almost double what it was at the bottom of the housing burst:

According to Lynn Franco, Director of Economic Indicators at The Conference Board: “After a large gain in January, consumer confidence retreated in February, but still remains at pre-recession levels (September 2007, Index, 99.5). Consumers’ assessment of current conditions remained positive, but short-term expectations declined. While the number of consumers expecting conditions to deteriorate was virtually unchanged, fewer consumers expect conditions to improve, prompting a less upbeat outlook. Despite this month’s decline, consumers remain confident that the economy will continue to expand at the current pace in the months ahead.”

Consumers’ appraisal of current conditions was moderately less favorable in February than in January. Those saying business conditions are “good” decreased from 28.2 percent to 26.0 percent, however those claiming business conditions are “bad” decreased from 17.3 percent to 17.0 percent. Consumers were also somewhat less positive in their assessment of the job market, with the proportion stating jobs are “plentiful” decreasing slightly from 20.7 percent to 20.5 percent, and those claiming jobs are “hard to get” increasing from 24.6 percent to 26.2 percent.

Consumers’ optimism about the short-term outlook was considerably less positive in February. Those expecting business conditions to improve over the next six months decreased from 18.9 percent to 16.1 percent, while those expecting business conditions to worsen increased from 8.2 percent to 8.7 percent.

Consumers’ outlook for the labor market was also less optimistic. Those anticipating more jobs in the months ahead decreased from 17.3 percent to 13.4 percent. However, those anticipating fewer jobs declined from 14.8 percent to 14.3 percent. The proportion of consumers expecting growth in their incomes declined from 19.5 percent to 15.1 percent. The proportion expecting a decrease rose from 10.8 percent to 12.0 percent.

I thought you had a clue that the pipeline is buried and so the uneducated comment about losing land.

You are apparently unaware that TransCanada attempted to use Eminent Domain in Nebraska: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamescon...tone-pipeline/ or are you a fan of the government forcing citizens to sign right-of-way papers?

The topcover does not go anywhere it remains for the usage of the landowner.

Straw man - I never said it was above-ground; you made that assumption. Read on...

Your crops won't grow and cattle won't grow comments show a profound stupidity of reality of farm and country life, living with the reality of an underground pipeline. I would guess you have never been on a farm or probably even seen a farm up close. My family owns land with pipelines underneath the dirt. We have had ZERO problems for decades and the cattle still grave over it and crops grow.

"Profound stupidity" - OK tell me LZ, where do you think your farm's water comes from? If it's not piped in from somewhere else, it's from a water table. And where do you think spilt oil seeps into when an underground pipe leaks? How do your cows and crops grow when you feed them oil? That's what I meant - you just took it to a straw man fallacy to attack.

BTW my family is listed in the index of First Farmers of Ohio. My dad farmed, his dad did, etc. back to the 1800s. We moved when I was young so I didn't work the families' farms but we were regulars there growing up. It's how I learned to shoot pests and to never name the animals because we'd eat them in a coming season. So, nice try with the other ad-hominem.

You bemoan the pipeline but you still drive a car that consumes gasoline. There is a word that describe folks like that, hypocrite. Until you give up all products produced by petroleum products you have no credibility.

I think you're mistaking me for an imaginary opponent that you depend upon for your own position. I don't bemoan the pipeline - I just don't care much about it either way. I said that the economic impact will be minimal and that the spillage risks and eminent domain issues should make us question its efficacy. I also said that it's not worthy of a "do or die" exhaltation of energy policy.

But what you needed to do was create an ad-hominem that requires me to stop using petrol if I want to critique it. Apparently your belief system requires question-less obedience to the energy producers of what you consume. Mine doesn't. I'll willingly say that I'm unhappy about certain aspects of an energy source I use and that we should invest more in alternative energy sources to diversify our national portfolio, just as I'm willing to critique the banking, manufacturing and I.T. industries I work in. Without critique, nothing improves. I don't know why you need to feel so threatened and offended, but I'll suggest you examine your passions for the reason. Perhaps it's because you so badly need that to be true as a keystone of your belief system (pun intended).

People of your ilk obviously genuflect to Soros, Gore and all the other modern progress haters. I enjoy your trying to counter-point and the fact that you are the solo liberal/government trusting/government lover here on this site.

Quite a few more ad-hominems, including several "guilt by association" sub-categories and a straw-man of "modern progress haters" (I guess because progressives hate... um... progress). It's telling that you use "government loving" as well, indicating critique of any conservative group-think is unwelcome. And perhaps it is here. I will refrain, however, from using the "kool-aid" ad-hominem in reverse, though I think I'd be pretty justified.

Truth be told you will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I merely am pointing the obvious and inarguable about the pipeline.

I agree with the first sentence, but clearly the second was false. Nice try though! Calm down and think through your argument. This whole name-calling, character smearing thing is pretty childish, don't you think?

Or just let it go - I don't care. Just like this oversold pipeline.

[Bawanna]

I like a Perch supper with fried potatoes.

[knkali]

I like a Perch supper with fried potatoes.

I love you Bawanna.......LMAO

[getsome]

Does the Perch come with Okra? I like Okra....

[WMac19]

Get back to me when the administration counts those no longer looking for work among the unemployment figures. Until then, because I like my opinion, I'll keep my opinion. Because I like my rationale, I'll keep my rationale. ;-)

[Bawanna]

Well you can keep it but your gonna have to pay tax on that rationale Mr., Michelles's got some traveling to do before she goes back to Chicago.

[WMac19]

Well you can keep it but your gonna have to pay tax on that rationale Mr., Michelles's got some traveling to do before she goes back to Chicago.

Lol, you got that right. Royalty's expensive.

[muggsy]

Scott, you're a guest here. Don't wear out your welcome. Bawanna, anytime you're in Cleveland I'll fix you a perch dinner that can't be beaten.