Mas Ayoob on 9mm Standard vs P+

[xb12s]

Guys, my head is spinning. I guess I need a remedial course in ammo selection. The one thing I got out of this was that ammo quality (in terms of good expansion in a larger range of velocities) has improved. I'll go back and read through this thread more slowly and follow some of the links.

I can't shoot any ballistic tests and I'm sure none of the rounds will perform poorly enough (in terms of accuracy or kick too much) where I would disqualify many of them. So, I'll have to pick based on internet recommendations and whether they feed well in my Kahr.

Hornady Critical Defense and Winchester PDX1 are readily available without ordering online and I have shot and carried each with my PM9. I know Corbon DPX is supposed to be some good stuff also (seen it recommend for Kahrs on other forums), but not locally available. I've never tried Gold Dots, although I see a lot of people like those.

What is "bonded" ammo and why is it better?

[chrish]

You might also want to look at Winchester Ranger Bonded, it comes in the various loads as well, it's the pre-PDX1 bullet, but pretty much the same thing (IMO). I have some as my 'secondary' carry round because PDX1 is so expensive. It's <$30/50 rounds, so quite a bit cheaper than PDX1. You want to look for RA9B (if you are looking for 147gr). I'm not sure what the other loads are tagged as far as a model#.

I read somewhere they were gonna start offering PDX1 in 50rd boxes. Not sure when or if that's gonna happen, but I buy BOTH the PDX1 147 and the RA9B 147 ... along w/ WWB or Super-X 147 for range fodder and training.

Bonded ammo prevents the jacket from slipping off the lead core on impact. It doesn't totally come off, but many will 'slip' back. I guess a really bad one could come apart, but you usually see reviews in terms of 'jacket slippage'. The process of that jacket slipping can reduce energy on target, cause some amount of fragmentation, reduce penetration, etc. Basically it aids in the bullet performing as expected with penetration and expansion. I'm not a ballistics expert though.

[muggsy]

Guys, my head is spinning. I guess I need a remedial course in ammo selection. The one thing I got out of this was that ammo quality (in terms of good expansion in a larger range of velocities) has improved. I'll go back and read through this thread more slowly and follow some of the links.

I can't shoot any ballistic tests and I'm sure none of the rounds will perform poorly enough (in terms of accuracy or kick too much) where I would disqualify many of them. So, I'll have to pick based on internet recommendations and whether they feed well in my Kahr.

Hornady Critical Defense and Winchester PDX1 are readily available without ordering online and I have shot and carried each with my PM9. I know Corbon DPX is supposed to be some good stuff also (seen it recommend for Kahrs on other forums), but not locally available. I've never tried Gold Dots, although I see a lot of people like those.

What is "bonded" ammo and why is it better?

In a bonded bullet the lead is bonded to the copper jacket, so that the two don't separate on impact. This gives you better expansion and penetration. Those are good qualities to have in a projectile. Quite frankly, I believe that the debate between standard rounds and +P rounds is a big ado about nothing. In short barrel concealed carry guns the difference in velocity is minimal and velocity alone isn't the only consideration when discussing stopping power. Bullet placement and tissue damage is also something to take into consideration. Choose a cartridge that performs well in you gun and that you shoot well. That's all that you really need.

[jocko]

I am kinda found of the all copper Barnes HP in the corbon DPX. Great expansion every time and no need to worry about what lead might or might not be doing either. Not a cheap round but neither is life.

course I have never shot anyone with it but I have dreamed of shooting two illegals whe tried to steal my Nathan hot dogs off my grill in the back yard. Just sayin.

[Chuck54]

eagles stealing hot dogs ? eagles are protected if they have green card

[Bawanna]

Eagles got two of the neighbors chickens, (live chickens wandering loose, not the Colonel Sanders in a bucket kind which is a totally different bird) amazing. Might of got a 3rd one now. Was wandering around our yard, I been trying to catch it and add it to ours but she's wiley. Ain't seen her for a week or so, might of got et. I didn't ask for a green card so I don't know if it was a crime or not.

Never heard of an Eagle snatching a chicken but I know it to be true, seen it with me own eye.

[Ljutic]

Eagles got two of the neighbors chickens, (live chickens wandering loose, not the Colonel Sanders in a bucket kind which is a totally different bird) amazing. Might of got a 3rd one now. Was wandering around our yard, I been trying to catch it and add it to ours but she's wiley. Ain't seen her for a week or so, might of got et. I didn't ask for a green card so I don't know if it was a crime or not.

Never heard of an Eagle snatching a chicken but I know it to be true, seen it with me own eye.

Not sure how tongue in cheek your post is, but Eagles love Chicken. I never realized Eagles were scavengers until a local chicken producer got in big trouble for dumping their deads and subsequently killing the Eagles that ate them, got sick, and died. They should have buried or burned their dead birds, but got lazy.

[Tinman507]

[muggsy]

I want to see live hog ammo tests. Not the kind of Hogs that Jocko rides, but rather the kind he eats. I want to see if a 124 gr. +P will put them down or just piss them off. Maybe we could get them high on crack first.

[hotpig]

i want to see live hog ammo tests.

hey!!!!

[Agent]

A lot of the reason why the +p 124 grain is so popular is mostly contributed to the speed that the round achieves. In most cases, FPS is what makes the bullet expand. This is why the 155 GDHP performs better than the 165 grain and 180 grain versions in .40 cal. In some studies, the 155g opened almost 2/10ths of a inch bigger than the other rounds it was tested against.

[sierrajb]

A lot of the reason why the +p 124 grain is so popular is mostly contributed to the speed that the round achieves. In most cases, FPS is what makes the bullet expand. This is why the 155 GDHP performs better than the 165 grain and 180 grain versions in .40 cal. In some studies, the 155g opened almost 2/10ths of a inch bigger than the other rounds it was tested against.

Ditto on the "high hog" hunt!

Agent, I've never made that connection between speed and expansion. In fact, too much speed in the 9mm (HP or not) has been the source of much criticism for using 9mm as a defense in our military. Interesting....

[Charlie98]

I fired some Speer +P 230grn .45's out of my 4" Kimber and was astounded at the fireball they produced. I gave the 2nd box I'd bought to my buddy for his 5" XD. After that, I've pretty much stayed away from the +P rounds.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'll stick to the bigger is better: I carry Hornady 147grn TAP in my CW9 (I tried GDSB's but the Hornadys were more accurate and center of mass.)

[JFootin]

This thread adds some interesting evidence regarding the effectiveness of an inexpensive standard pressure HP round:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=15050

[sierrajb]

Agreed, Charlie98. In a real self defense scenario, the bad guy will not be criticizing how "fast" that bullet reached him. He'll be more concerned with all that weight that hit him in a fraction of a second. If your bullet takes only 1 second to reach 900-1200 feet PER SECOND, can you imagine how fast it will hit if he's only 21 feet away? Mass over speed any day for me, for now anyway....