Kahr CW.380 XTP or Hydrashock?

[berettabone]

10% ballistic gel is by far the best test medium we have, but obviously it is not perfect. I don't see people volunteering to be test media themselves. The gel is a uniform density fluid (to simulate the average density of the human body), while the human body is comprised of fluids of varying densities, as well as solids (bone).

The FBI decided on a range of 12 to 18 inches penetration in gel to be an acceptible equivalent range of penetration in human tissue. Most skulls will be fully penetrated with less than 12 inches of penetration, much less 18. Most people's abdomen's will be fully penetrated with 12 inches of actual penetration from front to back.

One thing I rarely see mentioned about the 12 to 18 inch penetration range is this is based on statistics. Specifically, it is based on a normal distribution (bell curve) with a desired mean penetration of 15 inches (most people only focus on 12 inches). That means if you get a mean penetration of 15 inches with a sample size larger than 30, then you can expect around 98% of these rounds will penetrate between 12 to 18 inches in the gel.

If your round has a mean penetration of 12 inches in the gel, using a sample size larger than 30, then you can expect 50% of these rounds to underpenetrate...

The bottom line is gel testing is a very good predictor of what a bullet will do in a human body, but it would be wise to select a round that frequently penetrates 15 inches instead of 12 inches. Stear clear of anything that typically penetrates less than 12 inches.

I usually don't let the FBI decide on my ammo for me

[Rubb]

I originally switched to FMJ after reading a story online several years ago about a guy that was negligently shot in the bicep area of the arm.
IIRC he was in the driver seat and the passenger had very bad gun handling practices to say the least.
Anyway... the Hydra Shok entered from the right, broke his humerus and did not exit the arm.
IMO the driver was very lucky is was a Hydra Shok and not a FMJ.
I’m sorry, I cannot verify this...I have searched and can’t find it anywhere.
If anyone else recalls this and can chime in to confirm or disprove, please do so.

Nowadays I tend to side with the folks that have seen the effects of JHP and FMJ in .380.

Over the course of the 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on (and taking into account my sometimes unique ability to get the detailed afterstory from the shooter himself), I've come to the belief that, to be assured of stopping, one must put hits on vital structures (brain/spinal cord or heart/aorta) of an aggresssor. I don't see how .380 JHPs add to a shooting's effectiveness, but I've seen a high percentage of instances in which they detracted from it. I wouldn't use .380 JHPs - not that they can't work, just that I've seen too many cases (for my comfort level) in which they failed to work.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/98...ing-erich.html

[kwh]

I was planning on ordering a couple hundred rounds myself but I see they are sold out. Serves me right for procrastinating.

Please post a range report with these when you can.

Email Precision One now. One day they had the ammo in stock the next day they did not. I sent them an e-mail that same day (late pm) asking when the ammo might be back in stock and an almost immediate reply said that they were running more. I immediately went back on the web site and there they were available again. Check their web page again or email them.

[booger switch]

Email Precision One now. One day they had the ammo in stock the next day they did not. I sent them an e-mail that same day (late pm) asking when the ammo might be back in stock and an almost immediate reply said that they were running more.

Got my order in. Thanks for the heads-up!

[garyb]

I usually don't let the FBI decide on my ammo for me

I was thinking the same thing....but also thought, "Who made the FBI the reference expert?" As far as the 380 is concerned, I look for good expansion within the first inch or so and generally 10-12" penetration. I'd much rather have good expansion, energy dumped within adequate penetration; rather than to have lack of expansion with over penetration. JMO.


I say this because, one of the best deer bullets I've ever seen work time after time, is a soft lead round ball over 85 grains of 2F from a muzzleloader. It dumps all the energy into the deer, expands completely as soon as it hits the deer and penetrates to the opposite side of the hide. The deer do not go anywhere. Most of the time, I'd find the ball totally flattened out in the hide on the opposite side of the animal. AS for over penetration with no expansion....I've shot deer with bonded sabots which did not expand and blew right through the deer. They would run over 100 yards with minimal blood loss. They all die with good shot placement, but the expanded bullet puts them down much, much more quickly. What does this have to do with 380 ammo? I believe that good, quick expansion and energy dump within adequate penetration...is King. On the other hand, over penetration without good expansion and resulting poor energy dump is the pauper. I must get expansion, energy dump into the target and decent penetration. That's why I would not recommend FMJ nor ball ammo in a 380. I believe this is a poor choice due to lack of expansion. JMO. You do not need 15-18" of penetration to hit the brain, lung or heart. But let's face it, placement is most important with anything...especially with a 380. That said...use what you feel will do the job.

[booger switch]

12 to 18 inches of penetration in ballistic gel is not equivalent to 12 to 18 inches of penetration in human tissue. I hope everyone gets that. It is an approximation. Actual penetration in human tissue will be less. I don't know what that exact range of equivalent penetration is, whether it is 6 to 9 inches or 8 to 12 inches of actual penetration in human tissue. No offense intended towards anyone but the FBI employed a lot pointy headed people, mechanical engineers, statisticians, doctors, etc to come up with that protocol, and I'm guessing they know a heck of a lot more about the subject than the average joe sixpack. Believe what you want, use whatever ammo you want, makes no difference to me.

[booger switch]

.380 is a bullet that is already on the ragged edge of being too light for caliber. Any .380 bullet that expands rapidly is going to virtually guarantee underpenetration, even if it doesn't strike bone. If it does strike bone, it will penetrate even less.

If your carry round penetrates 10 inches (on average) in ballistic gel, then that means half will penetrate less than 10 inches, and half will penetrate more than 10 inches, but only a small percentage will penetrate 12 or more inches. That would not be a good choice in my opinion.

[kwh]

.380 is a bullet that is already on the ragged edge of being too light for caliber. Any .380 bullet that expands rapidly is going to virtually guarantee underpenetration, even if it doesn't strike bone. If it does strike bone, it will penetrate even less.

If your carry round penetrates 10 inches (on average) in ballistic gel, then that means half will penetrate less than 10 inches, and half will penetrate more than 10 inches, but only a small percentage will penetrate 12 or more inches. That would not be a good choice in my opinion.

This should be a great test to eliminate certain bullets. If if the bullet over expands and under penetrates in gelatin that should automatically disqualify it for self defense use.

[garyb]

I'll get more specific. You can research it for yourself. Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX. Low flash, Low recoil, Full uniform expansion begins at 1/2" and reaches max stretch cavity wound channel (1/2") to 4 1/2" of penetration. Rated at 1000FPS but short barrel tests chrony around 866 to 900 FPS. Expansion of bullet measured at .415 to .436. Total penetration was consistently 12 to 13". This was through 4 layers of denim and various gel types were tested. NO evidence of expanding quickly resulting in under penetration. IMHO the tests I've reviewed demonstrate that this is a good performer for 380. That is a bit more specific about what I was referring to as a good choice.

[mbaza3]

I use the 380 Auto 90 gr FTX® Critical Defense - Hornady. It has been 100% reliable in my P380.

[dbp67]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=wOwCXXpEP50

Take this for what it's worth. I saw this video and googled Precision One and found that they are right here in SC. I went to a local gun show and met the owner and purchased several boxes of this round. They all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. I use it for EDC now.

[garyb]

Yes, Precision One appears to be a good 380 carry ammo too. Good penetration and decent expansion.

[kwh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=wOwCXXpEP50

Take this for what it's worth. I saw this video and googled Precision One and found that they are right here in SC. I went to a local gun show and met the owner and purchased several boxes of this round. They all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. I use it for EDC now.

Thanks for the report. This was my original question to begin the thread, If any one had tried either the XTP or HydraShock bullets in the Kahr .380 for functional reliability.

[booger switch]

Precision One .380 with the XTP runs through my P380 like crap through a goose. Very accurate. I have a good supply of Hydra-Shok on hand, but the P1 is what I'll be carrying.

Starline brass. Very nice touch.

[gassah]

kwh,

I tried the HPR today and it ran well through my CW380. I've had trouble with Federal Hydrashoks. P1s have been ordered.