Kahr CW.380 XTP or Hydrashock?

[kwh]

kwh,

I tried the HPR today and it ran well through my CW380. I've had trouble with Federal Hydrashoks. P1s have been ordered.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

[SaltyNC]

You may be interested in this, based on actual shootings:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

The numbers above are very similar for 9mm and .45, though clearly both of those rounds produce more damage. This study was an eye opener for me.

The XTP bullet in .380 seems to have the best combination of expansion VS penetration. Buffalo Bore expands great, beautiful expansion pattern, but it doesn't penetrate as deeply. Unless crazed or on drugs, you would sure as heck feel the Buffalo Bore round hammer into you.

I am just beginning to test defensive ammo in my .380, and my plan is to see if it will run reliably when mixing rounds. I have given a good bit of thought to this. It is a hard call and I know of no stats that will give a definitive best practice.

One could argue that since most stops are psychological, your first round should be expanding and hard hitting like the high pressure Buffalo Bore. That would let the person know without a doubt that they have been hit and hit hard, and hopefully will stop any aggression. If they don't stop, follow that up with either XTP or hard round in the next two rounds. That will get you the penetration you need for a physical stop, assuming you can place additional rounds into the aggressor.

Another argument could be made that the first round should be an XTP, since it will give both penetration and expansion, and could stop the aggression by physically destroying the CNS and registering psychologically, then follow that up with more XTP or a round bullet if heavy, thick layers of clothing will need to be penetrated. Season may affect what rounds to carry, as well. Summer and t-shirts, XTP. Down coats, sweaters, shirts, and thermals, maybe you will need that hard round bullet if you are willing to accept the risks to innocent bystanders.

But, as others have said, the cons of using hard ammo are that innocent bystanders could be hit if you miss or if the bullet exits the aggressor's body. Looking at hit/miss stats from LEOs who train regularly isn't very heartening. Under stress, despite better training than most of us will have, shots are often missed. Some of the misses may be explained by distance, multiple attackers, etc, but I think its been well documented that when people are under assault, and adrenaline is dumping, we tend not to perform up to our normal standards. We tend to suck out loud. Hands trembling, no fine motor control, stumbling backwards, freezing up, slow reaction time, tunnel vision, awareness of anything other than immediate threat completely gone. For that reason, I plan to do as much training as I can simulating those circumstances -- cold hands, pushing heart rate to max, etc. before drawing and firing. It will never be the same, but it will at least get closer to what one might actually experience. I hope I never do, though. I have only met one person (nice guy, seems normal) who shot and killed someone who it didn't greatly affect in a negative way.

After reading this, I'm tending to lean toward using XTP bullets only. It should still hit hard enough to register a good psych reaction, and at the same time, should produce good penetration and wound channel.

Here is the Shooting the Bull analysis that others here have pointed me toward. The more blue, the better:
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/fina...cp-ammo-quest/

This is how I've been thinking about what to carry. I hope it helps. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a clear consensus on "the best".

SaltyNC

[SaltyNC]

Just FYI, Precision Ammo has the 50-box XTP back in stock. It is as inexpensive as most range ammo. I just ordered 200 rnds to try.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I have no idea about the quality control standards for ammo companies. Everything I've heard about Precision One has been excellent, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that it concerns me a little that they are smaller. Sometimes that is actually a good thing, sometimes not. For that reason, any ammo I plan to carry, I first test fire 100 rounds just to make sure the ammo feeds, etc. After that test is satisfied, I then take at minimum a 10% random sampling from each box of ammo I will use for carrying and test fire it for reliability. My thinking is that if there is a problem, it can affect a batch of ammo, so it would hopefully be caught in my sample run of each box. It's not foolproof, but it is better than nothing.

I just think, what if Louis, who has been producing .380 for the last 5 years, needs to take a leave of absence, and in his place, they bring in Johnny. Johnny is green as Popeye's spinach. He makes mistakes during his first two or three batches that no one catches. Or, what if Cletus knocks over a container of primer onto a dirty, dusty floor. He's worried he will lose his job, so he sweeps it up and puts it back into the container before anyone can see. Far fetched? Probably, but stuff like this happens even in medical-grade production. Or, imagine the head of quality control at Kahr is fired, but gets a new job as quality control for an ammo production company? Sorry, couldn't resist.

SaltyNC

[thomjb]

I do like XTP bullets, try the Fiocchi Extrema...

[Cynthia S]

I know this is an old thread, but that seems appropriate to my question. A lot of years have pasted since the Shooting the Bull review that gave very good marks to Precision One XTP ammo for the P380. Does anyone have a comment on any possible changes in the production practices of Precision One or the reliability of the reviewed ammo? Any new reviews that might conflict with the Shooting Bull review?

I'm also a little confused by what seems conflicting info on Hornady HPs. The Shooting Bull review had Hornady CD pretty low in his review, and Hornady XTP pretty much at the top. But somewhere I read that the only difference in the 2 hornadys was that one had a polymer insert in the hollow. This doesn't seem right.

Final concern. The last post in this thread suggested that one use Fiocchi Extrema... . But I recall when I was researching my CT380, that Fiocchi Perfecta was a brand that caused feed problems because they were Italian made and didn't meet US standards of rim thickness. Are the Extrema... OK now in Kahr 380s?

Thanks all, Cynthia

[Ed M]

Cynthia - Perfecta ammo gave my Kahr 380s fits until i did the extractor modification found on this forum. It's made in Italy, and does not comply with SAAMI specs.

Fiocchi Extrema is made here in the US, and functioned fine in my Kahr 380s even before I did the extractor mod on them. Best part is that it's relatively inexpensive as well.

You likely missed out on Shooting the Bull's last video on the 380 Ammo Quest series. There's a new winner. Several of us here use the Underwood loading of Lehigh Defense's latest bullet design with good results.

Not cheap, but it's likely the best self defense round you can buy for a 380. https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...=7865927761977

[gale155]

I know this is an old thread, but that seems appropriate to my question. A lot of years have pasted since the Shooting the Bull review that gave very good marks to Precision One XTP ammo for the P380. Does anyone have a comment on any possible changes in the production practices of Precision One or the reliability of the reviewed ammo? Any new reviews that might conflict with the Shooting Bull review?

I'm also a little confused by what seems conflicting info on Hornady HPs. The Shooting Bull review had Hornady CD pretty low in his review, and Hornady XTP pretty much at the top. But somewhere I read that the only difference in the 2 hornadys was that one had a polymer insert in the hollow. This doesn't seem right.

Final concern. The last post in this thread suggested that one use Fiocchi Extrema... . But I recall when I was researching my CT380, that Fiocchi Perfecta was a brand that caused feed problems because they were Italian made and didn't meet US standards of rim thickness. Are the Extrema... OK now in Kahr 380s?

Thanks all, Cynthia

I don't have chronographs, gel or any of that stuff...I do all of my testing out in the back yard using heavy metal coffee cans or heavy plastic jugs filled with water. I then ask myself if I would want to be shot with it, and if I were would it stop me from doing what I was doing (which is why we shoot in self-defense). Based on my research and my back yard testing, I carry Hornady XTP in my .380's. It has been totally reliable in my RM380 and my new-to-me CW380.

I did a little shooting this afternoon with my CW380, and feel compelled to comment about Ruger ARX 56gr ammo. I've not carried it, but I've put a box through both of my .380's. It's the only ammo I've fired that absolutely blew-up my targets...I mean blew them up. I don't know if it's the increased velocity or what, but it's been impressive to me. My RM380 will eat any ammo, but as you know the CW380 can be finicky. Mine has cycled the ARX reliably without a single malfunction of any kind. I'm not totally convinced yet, but I'm starting to think about ARX for carry.

[Cynthia S]

Hi Ed. Yes, I looked up Lehigh after I posted the thread above. It looks really good, but I would prefer not to have the extra penetration of the Underwood, so am considering the Lehigh XP. At a buck fifty a shoot (assuming I find it locally), how many rounds in my CT380 would you consider enough to prove out reliability? I figure I can afford to shoot up a magazine a month to stay familiar with the ammo.

Hi Gale. I'm thinking the extra speed of your ARX most likely means lots more penetration. Extra penetration beyond good penetration seems like more to worry about well out beyond the bad guy. Don't think I need that.

Cynthia

[DavidR]

I've watched all the ARX gel tests on YouTube and the 380 round never over penetrates. In fact, it seems to barely make the FBI minimum 12 inches. Ruger no longer makes the round, Inceptor does and the bullet shape is a little different. The flutes are not as deep as the ARX rounds were. This may actually help it to penetrate further than 12 inches.

The picture below from left to right is Inceptor ARX, Lehigh Xtreme Defense and Black Hills Honey Badger (Lehigh made bullet). The ARX and Xtreme Defense run fine in my CT380 but 1 round out of 20 with the Honey Badger jammed on the feed ramp (likely because the round is long and square at the nose). Lehigh's Xtreme Penetrator (not pictured) also cycles fine.

If you can run a box of 20 through with no issues I would say you're good.

[Ed M]

Hi Cynthia - I live less than 30 minutes away from Lehigh Defense. I wanted nickle plated cases, and they suggested Underwood, as they partner with them.

I was advised to only buy one box to run through my gun to see if it fed OK. I was also advised to use the Xtreme Defender bullet as opposed to the Xtreme Penetrator.

The XD has less penetration than the XP, but a larger wound channel. I also use the +P version to insure enough penetration, especially in winter time with heavier clothes. The XD has functioned perfectly in every 380 I've tried it in.

The +P version is a stout load - 1400 fps and 283 ft lbs of energy. The non +P is plenty potent enough at 1300 fps and 244 ft lbs of energy.

I prefer nickle plated cases for my carry ammo for durability reasons, and I also feel they're a bit slicker for smoother feeding. Nothing wrong with the Lehigh loading of these bullets, but Underwood uses Starline cases (the best), CCI primers (my favorite) and low flash powder. Best quality components money can buy.

[Cynthia S]

Well, there you go. I was not aware that there were more bullets with fluting than just the Lehigh(Underwood) XP. I guess I need to do some more research on the new candidates.

Cynthia

[SlowBurn]

FWIW Ventura Munitions sells .380 ARX in 250 round bulk boxes. Cost shipped works out about the same as buying regular FMJ ammo by the box Price allows me to use it for range and carry. Works great. It’s also light weight which is nice in a pocket pistol.
ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds

I've watched all the ARX gel tests on YouTube and the 380 round never over penetrates. In fact, it seems to barely make the FBI minimum 12 inches. Ruger no longer makes the round, Inceptor does and the bullet shape is a little different. The flutes are not as deep as the ARX rounds were. This may actually help it to penetrate further than 12 inches.

The picture below from left to right is Inceptor ARX, Lehigh Xtreme Defense and Black Hills Honey Badger (Lehigh made bullet). The ARX and Xtreme Defense run fine in my CT380 but 1 round out of 20 with the Honey Badger jammed on the feed ramp (likely because the round is long and square at the nose). Lehigh's Xtreme Penetrator (not pictured) also cycles fine.

If you can run a box of 20 through with no issues I would say you're good.

[gale155]

David - Ruger ARX ammo is (was?) made for Ruger by Polycase, and was simply a rebranded version of their Inceptor ARX round. Other than the name on the box the two are identical from what I can tell.

Cynthia - I'm not a big fan of ARX (yet), but I've been impressed with my limited, unscientific backyard results. The increased velocity results mainly from the lighter weight bullet. Based on the tests and reviews I've seen online, over-penetration is certainly not an issue. I don't know about the original Polycase Inceptor, but one cool thing about the Ruger version is there's 25 rounds per box, as opposed to the usual 20.

[DavidR]

David - Ruger ARX ammo is (was?) made for Ruger by Polycase, and was simply a rebranded version of their Inceptor ARX round. Other than the name on the box the two are identical from what I can tell.

Cynthia - I'm not a big fan of ARX (yet), but I've been impressed with my limited, unscientific backyard results. The increased velocity results mainly from the lighter weight bullet. Based on the tests and reviews I've seen online, over-penetration is certainly not an issue. I don't know about the original Polycase Inceptor, but one cool thing about the Ruger version is there's 25 rounds per box, as opposed to the usual 20.

If you compare the picture of the Inceptor ARX round I posted to a picture of the original Polycase or Ruger you will see that the bullet has changed.

Still 25 round boxes.

[lantern]

FWIW Ventura Munitions sells .380 ARX in 250 round bulk boxes. Cost shipped works out about the same as buying regular FMJ ammo by the box Price allows me to use it for range and carry. Works great. It’s also light weight which is nice in a pocket pistol.
ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds

Thank you VERY much. Ordered.