Has anybody tried Mag Safe Ammo?

[Vanzpp]

However, there's lots of good carry ammo out there, so I am not entering any debate. Do your homework. It is what you feel confident using.

I agree. Nothing wrong with Hornady or any of the other established HP loads.

[JFootin]

I agree, too. Just doing some homework on these rounds. They piqued the interest of my engineer's mind.

[Vanzpp]

I agree, too. Just doing some homework on these rounds. They piqued the interest of my engineer's mind.

Well, any news on your Magsafe test?

[Vanzpp]

I should also add that I called Magsafe about using the +P+ Max .38 special load in alloy framed guns like my SW 642.

I was told that as long as the gun is +P rated, there is no problem.

[Mr. S]

I went back and read the Performance Info page again, and decided to just copy it here:



MAGNUM PERFORMANCE WITH SAFETY...
That's the concept which led to MagSafe Ammo, the world's most effective handgun ammo. There isn't another bullet anywhere with the take-charge performance offered by MagSafe Ammo.

DESIGNED FOR PERFECT PENETRATION DEPTH
MagSafe's revolutionary design uses large lead shotgun pellets rather than solid lead for a bullet's core. The earliest versions (1986-1987) used small pellets, like the #6 shot a competitor uses for their "Silver" line of frangible ammo.

Early in the design process, hundreds of videotaped test shots were made into ordnance gelatin. Then, viewed in slow motion, you could see how a core's pellet size and pattern created the greatest wound damage for any given caliber.

It was quickly learned that using much larger #2 or #3 shot gave perfect penetration depth in gelatin or flesh-form 10 to 13 inches (two to three times as much penetration as our competitors). A large man's chest is only 12 inches thick from front to back, and any more penetration than that was wasted energy which would endanger innocent people.

That was the first goal reached - ammunition which won't overpenetrate a torso and hurt or kill innocent bystanders.

REDUCED RICOCHET HAZARD
One side benefit of using huge shot pellets is the reduction of ricochets, because larger objects are affected more by rotational forces. Tests showed that MagSafe Ammo won't even glance off slimy, wet boards at the most shallow of angles. They also don't ricochet off windshields, car doors or interior house walls. And, most importantly, they won't glance off bone.

ANOTHER GOAL WAS REACHED. "CONTROLLED-CORE TECHNOLOGY"
For almost a year, experimentation with shot placement within the bullet's jacket continued, looking for a fan-shaped pellet wound channel. It was felt that the wider the pattern the better the chance of hitting vital organs, even with a poolry-placed shot.

By arranging pellets in specific patterns, literally stacking them in place one at a time, by hand, bullets could be designed to work nearly any way wanted - maybe deeper penetration, or wider wound channel, some even to break apart in sheetrock walls.

To stabilize the pellet patterns until the instant of impact, dozens of types of epoxy resins were tested. A custom blend with perfect properties was found - it is easily broken apart at impact, yet tough enough to launch at twice the velocity of normal bullets.

No other ammo uses high-tech resins or pellets put onto specific patterns by hand.

WORLD'S FASTEST AMMO - YET LOWEST RECOIL!
The final goal - to have the world's fastest ammo, yet with much less recoil than standard (slower) ammunition - was really tough.

However, hot loads are now offered like the .45 ACP SUPER SWAT load, which clocks 2,160 + feet per second (fps) in a five-inch auto - yet has about one-third the recoil.

The 9mm Mini-Glock Load cruises along at about 2,000 fps from Glock's teensy Model 26, yet has far more stopping ability than the nastiest .357 magnum or 10mm hollowpoint in the world. Yet the recoil is about like shooting low-powered target loads!

LOTS OF FOLKS SAID "IT WON'T WORK"
For example, half a dozen gun "experts" stated a 66-grain bullet would not function a .45 ACP weapon. So, MagSafe was tested in full-auto Tommy Guns, which don't function very well at all with light ammo. It was also tried in a 645 Smith with 28-lb. recoil springs - just to make sure.

Then the folks at Magnum Research said a slug as light as 250 grains would not function their massive Desert Eagle in .50 Action Express Caliber. MagSafe's 180-grainer functioned perfectly under all conditions.

MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS
The now -famous Strasbourg Tests put MagSafe on the map. To Summarize what nearly everyone already knows, over 600 live French Alpine goats (their bodies are very much like humans) were shot under controlled conditions: no anesthetic, same shot placement form animal to animal, and with blood pressure and heart rate monitors to determine the Incapacitation Time (measure of how long it took a goat to cease functioning after the single shot was delivered).

MagSafe Ammo worked - better than anything else. Tests were done without MagSafe's knowledge, so some versions tested were the lowest powered. For example, two types of .380 ACP are offered; the .380 Defender, a 60-grainer at 1,360 fps in a Colt Mustang; and the .380 MAX (designed for a big city's undercover drug agents) with a 52-grain slug sizzling along at 1,620 fps in the Mustang.

The Defender has 247 ft-lbs of energy, while the MAX load has 303 ft-lbs. The Defender's lower velocity hampered stopping power, resulting in a Average Incapacitation Time (AIT) of 7.12 seconds. That's the average time for five different goats, each shot once with the MagSafe 60-grain Defender.

However - and this is where things get interesting - there wasn't a jacketed hollowpoint bullet in ANY caliber which dropped the goats faster than MagSafe's weakest .380 load!

MagSafe's .380 beat every .45 ACP slug, every 10mm, every 9mm (including police-only ammo), every .40 caliber - no matter who made it - Cor-Bon, Remington, Glaser and HydraShok.

In fact, MagSafe's lowest-powered .380 ACP load had an AIT faster than the best manstopper of all time - Remington's .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP!

Average Incapacitation Times for all other MagSafe's calibers were in the 4-second range, and MagSafe topped the tests in every caliber but .357 Magnum (a prototype Quik-Shot beat by a fraction of a second), and .38 Special, where Glaser won by .04 seconds. Had the .38 Special tests been done in a 2-inch barrel, MagSafe would have topped that test, too.

THE BOTTOM LINE
MagSafe Ammo is faster, recoils less, and stops attackers faster than any other ammunition in the world. Elite forces are outfitted with MagSafe, from Navy SEALS to the Royal Hong Kong Police anti-gang units, from big-city undercover narcs to guards at some of America's meanest prisons.

The reason is simple. MagSafe works. It's expensive, but it works. You really can turn your .380 into .45 auto, but you have to pay for this kind of hand-crafted performance.

The question is this: Just how much is your life worth?

Here are the stats for 9mm Luger:

Name......................... Wt... Speed/Hitting Power... Description............................
#95 + P Max Load...... 64... 1,950fps/540 ft-lbs.... Best all-around 9mm load
#9MG Mini-Glock Load 50... 2,000fps/444 ft-lbs.... Best for short-barrelled autos
#9D Defender............. 60... 1,800fps/431 ft-lbs.... Lowest recoil of any 9mm

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072

Save your money.

[JFootin]

Well, any news on your Magsafe test?

Well, ole uncle Joe, he's a moving kind a slow at the junction! :80:

It took every last penny I had to buy the gun. Then, with enough to cover most of my bills, I remained broke for weeks. Since I got another check, I have been buying a couple of spare mags, some ammo, a Universal LULA mag loader, some earmuffs to protect my ears, a cleaning kit, a Qwik-Grip to aid in gripping the gun, and I have been looking at a holster or two. I have to try and negotiate with my niece and her husband who have several acres and a house out in the country, to see if I can shoot my gun out there. I have to approach her just right, because I am told she doesn't like guns. Otherwise, I will have to go to the expense of a 70 mile round trip and expenses at an indoor range. So, as of yet, I haven't been able to shoot my gun. It will be some time from now, after the break in period, before I experiment with Mag-Safe ammo. But I will be scheduling my first range session soon. :53:

[TheTman]

I have no experience with this ammo. So skip this if you want, it's just opinion.
Living in an apartment, I might be tempted to use something like that, to prevent penetration into neighbor's rooms. I notice they don't say anything about accuracy.
I'd want to know some test group sizes and how close to the target the group was before I spent the money they ask for that ammo. Of course at indoor distances most rounds are going to be within a couple inches of the aim point. Other than being concerned about penetration into other rooms or apartments, I wouldn't really carry it. Particularly out in public where all kinds of things may happen. Perhaps you need to shoot thru a car door or something, these are not going to accomplish that.
I look at it as an ammo that I'd only use in guns that never left the house. It may be the perfect ammo for indoor shooting, but outside of my home in the real world, I want something more conventional.

[JFootin]

....
I'd want to know some test group sizes and how close to the target the group was before I spent the money they ask for that ammo....

That is why I started this thread. I wanted to find out all I could before shelling out the money they want for these rounds.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[JFootin]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072

Save your money.

This article is talking about frangible rounds that turn into powder when they hit. This Mag-Safe ammo is not like that. Did you look at those gelatin tubes in the picture? No dust. Shot pellets and angular pieces of metal penetrating 12" and making hamburger meat out of an area several inches wide! Is there less of a tendency for these bullets to ricochet or to kill neighbors in the next apartment? Yes. But these are clearly not designed as safe practice rounds, nor are they marketed specifically for use on ships or airplanes. They are marketed as self defense rounds.

You obviously haven't seriously studied the information I shared about these bullets, and just gave an uninformed opinion without having any actual experience with the rounds.

Again, I don't want off the cuff opinions. I want information and evaluations from people who have actually USED THE AMMO! Please!

[Mr. S]

This article is talking about frangible rounds that turn into powder when they hit. This Mag-Safe ammo is not like that. Did you look at those gelatin tubes in the picture? No dust. Shot pellets and angular pieces of metal penetrating 12" and making hamburger meat out of an area several inches wide! Is there less of a tendency for these bullets to ricochet or to kill neighbors in the next apartment? Yes. But these are clearly not designed as safe practice rounds, nor are they marketed specifically for use on ships or airplanes. They are marketed as self defense rounds.

You obviously haven't seriously studied the information I shared about these bullets, and just gave an uninformed opinion without having any actual experience with the rounds.

Again, I don't want off the cuff opinions. I want information and evaluations from people who have actually USED THE AMMO! Please!

Are you kidding?
Did I "seriously study"the link from the manufacturer that you pasted?
No what is there to study?
Looking at the tubes they show what percentage of the pellets actually penetrated 12" ?
Doesnt look like any in the second tube made it 12"...
But wait they say that anything more than 12" is not needed.That sure is convenient since it looks like most of the pellets won't make it that far.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article432.htm


While I'm posting links why don't you read this one.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

Good advice and theory from people who don't make ammo and want you to buy it.

[jocko]

sure lots of good reading there, that is for sure.

[JFootin]

Are you kidding?
Did I "seriously study"the link from the manufacturer that you pasted?
No what is there to study?
Looking at the tubes they show what percentage of the pellets actually penetrated 12" ?
Doesnt look like any in the second tube made it 12"...
But wait they say that anything more than 12" is not needed.That sure is convenient since it looks like most of the pellets won't make it that far.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article432.htm


While I'm posting links why don't you read this one.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

Good advice and theory from people who don't make ammo and want you to buy it.

sure lots of good reading there, that is for sure.

You're right. This is relevant material. The first article makes a convincing case about forearms getting in the way and stuff. I'll have to take some time to investigate the material at the second site. Thanks for the info.

I think I'll stick to Gold Dots or something comparable.

[jocko]

same for me GD are a good safe round that one can depend on to go bang and also to work perfect in most all guns and proven to be effective. Why muddy up the waters with scenarios that 99.995% will never encounter. Again though nothing wrong with reading good material, one just has to sift the gold from the sand..

[Vanzpp]

Are you kidding?
Did I "seriously study"the link from the manufacturer that you pasted?
No what is there to study?
Looking at the tubes they show what percentage of the pellets actually penetrated 12" ?
Doesnt look like any in the second tube made it 12"...
But wait they say that anything more than 12" is not needed.That sure is convenient since it looks like most of the pellets won't make it that far.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article432.htm

I don't know if I buy the premise of this article. Even if you assume that the Federal Hydrashok penetrated an additional four inches past the ribcage after hitting an arm, that is not enough penetration to hit the vital organs mentioned in the article (i.e. spine, aorta or vena cava.) There might be enough penetration for the heart, but a shot to the heart will not immediately stop an attack by someone--esp. if they are hopped up on drugs and/or adrenaline.

The only way to stop an attack IMMEDIATELY is to take out the CNS with a hit to the brain or spine. With this in mind, I don't think either the Hydroshoks or Magsafe succeed, especially if it's a hit from the front or side. (It had better be from the front if you're going to argue self-defense in court!) With a handgun, the #1 factor involved in stopping an attack is the psychological factor. ("OH MY GOD, I'VE BEEN SHOT!!") This being the case, I suspect either traditional HP or Magsafes will do the job--assuming the attacker is "feeling pain", so to speak. If the attacker is feeling no pain, you'd better use the handgun to buy time to work your way to the 12 ga.

Also, cops with street experience speak favorably of frangible ammo. Ayoob writes about the effectiveness of Glaser Safety Slugs in his book "The Ayoob Files" and attests to their effectiveness. Marshall and Sanow speak highly of Magsafe ammo in "Street Stoppers". And Jim Cirillo was an advocate of RBCD ammo, another light, frangible design.

Yes, I know Fackler was a surgeon in Vietnam. However, it seems to me that battlefield scenarios and civilian self-defense scenarios are different animals. Heavier bullets make sense when you're trying to shoot someone with a rifle from 100+ yards away and overpenetration isn't really an issue. From a civilian self-defense perspective, you're dealing with bad-breath distances and risks of overpenetration in populated areas. Frangibles seem to make sense.

[Mr. S]

I don't know if I buy the premise of this article. Even if you assume that the Federal Hydrashok penetrated an additional four inches past the ribcage after hitting an arm, that is not enough penetration to hit the vital organs mentioned in the article (i.e. spine, aorta or vena cava.) There might be enough penetration for the heart, but a shot to the heart will not immediately stop an attack by someone--esp. if they are hopped up on drugs and/or adrenaline.

The only way to stop an attack IMMEDIATELY is to take out the CNS with a hit to the brain or spine. With this in mind, I don't think either the Hydroshoks or Magsafe succeed, especially if it's a hit from the front or side. (It had better be from the front if you're going to argue self-defense in court!) With a handgun, the #1 factor involved in stopping an attack is the psychological factor. ("OH MY GOD, I'VE BEEN SHOT!!") This being the case, I suspect either traditional HP or Magsafes will do the job--assuming the attacker is "feeling pain", so to speak. If the attacker is feeling no pain, you'd better use the handgun to buy time to work your way to the 12 ga.

Also, cops with street experience speak favorably of frangible ammo. Ayoob writes about the effectiveness of Glaser Safety Slugs in his book "The Ayoob Files" and attests to their effectiveness. Marshall and Sanow speak highly of Magsafe ammo in "Street Stoppers". And Jim Cirillo was an advocate of RBCD ammo, another light, frangible design.

Yes, I know Fackler was a surgeon in Vietnam. However, it seems to me that battlefield scenarios and civilian self-defense scenarios are different animals. Heavier bullets make sense when you're trying to shoot someone with a rifle from 100+ yards away and overpenetration isn't really an issue. From a civilian self-defense perspective, you're dealing with bad-breath distances and risks of overpenetration in populated areas. Frangibles seem to make sense.

The first paragraph I will mostly agree with.The Hydrashock is an old school hollowpoint with a good street record and the Magsafe couldn't compete with it.I would expect better performance from todays improved hollowpoint designs.

While cops with street experience may have spoken favorably of it(in the past) I doubt they use it for personal self defense use or for duty use.

I am more worried about underpenetration than overpenetration because todays hollowpoint designs work very well(as opposed to many years ago where most of your favorable comments about magsafe etc...came from).