New PM45 Range Test

[wyntrout]

This is just a quick note about my range trip yesterday. I'm too darn sleepy to think well enough to do a report now.
The first shot I fired hit dead center of the target at 7 yards or so. The recoil wasn't bad. I'm sure glad that I put the bike inner tube on the grip. Before I was through, I put my right hand glove on because I kept getting my right thumb on or near the magazine release and that thing is rough. I would consciously try to keep my thumb off, but it wound up there too often -- not pressing on it but close enough that the recoil would push it into my thumb.
When I could get a bullet into the chamber, I found it easier to shoot or shoot better than the PM9. That was a surprise!
I had trouble with chambering rounds from the first attempt -- both 5-shot magazines wouldn't hold the bullet up high enough and it would slam into the bottom of the feed ramp and if you tried to hit the slide to help it into battery, the bullet would stay where it was... or more often the slide would close, but but the bullet stayed in the magazine and had a scratch on top where the slide's cartridge pusher scraped across the top.
It got to where I would chamber a round, withdraw the magazine, and check that indeed a round had gone into the chamber. I got tired of clicking on an empty chamber.
I fired 200 rounds of PMC 230-grain FMJ which shot pretty well and wasn't real "dirty". I then fired 34 rounds of Remington Golden Saber 230-greain BJHP which had a lot more kick for some reason. I thought both loads were "standard" .45 ACP. I had trouble chambering that as well at first. I did manage to get through shooting all of that, but I usually made sure that a round was stripped from the magazine before aiming and firing.
I liked shooting the PM45 and found I was more consistent and had tighter groups with it than the PM9, but I could sling shots about with poor trigger control or hasty shots.
I'll try to post some pix later and explain what I was experiencing or observing. I'll also do a post on the Double Tap +P GDs versus the Speer 124-grain GD Short Barrel +P... flash and recoil. The GDs worked fine except in the 7-round magazine that I've had problems with -- 4 shots and the last 3 are jammed too low to be picked up and the slide closes on an empty chamber.
I had one spare CorBon left over from earlier testing and fired it on video for comparison as well.
I need to get some sleep! Later.
Wynn

[In-Yo-Grill]

Dang Wynn, Im sorry your 1st outing with the new gun went like that. I wonder if something is not letting the mag fully seat in the gun. Regardless KAHR needs to go kick their QC dept. Dead up in the A$$. Things like this should NEVER happen with high dollar firearms.
RY

Here we go...

Give a good cleaning and head back out to the range. when you get a little more time in on the gun you'll know if it needs to go back. Get some sleep and tell us more...

[jocko]

hopefully it will smooth out with some more rounds down range. Seems lke the kahr 45's need alittle more TLC to get running correctly. Not sure why that is either. Keep us up to date wynn.

[Bawanna]

Doesn't sound like that bad of a first range report to me. I'm ecstatic that you report the recoil is manageable and as easy or easier to shoot than the PM9. As mentioned it most likely will slicken up some with more range time. Sad that you have to spit gold down the tube to make it run. Certainly to early to get Kahr on the phone. Early in the bonding process.
Quite often the FMJ practice type ammo is much more tame than any of the carry ammo even when it's not above standard. A little more recoil with the Golden Sabre is not surprise.

[jeep45238]

Both of those ammo cartridges are 'standard' pressure .45ACP - standard pressure simply means not above SAMMI limits for non +p ammo.

There's quite a difference in the oomph between plinking ammo and defensive ammo

[Bawanna]

I think the PMC is at the bottom of that pressure range and the Golden Sabre probably close to the top. There's quite a margin there. As you've mentioned before dropping the powder charge for competition, it's still in the SAAMI standard range but less powder, less velocity, less felt recoil.
I haven't played with Golden Sabre so it's just a SWAG on my part.

[jeep45238]

I haven't played with Golden Sabre so it's just a SWAG on my part.

It's good stuff. The rear of the bullet is slightly larger than the rest, so there's a better seal and less friction, resulting in higher speed. It's also brass jacketed, not copper, for more rapid expansion.

Very accurate in my firearms. I will say though that it suffers from bullet setback very quickly, at least in 185 grain .45ACP. I've switched back to Winchester Ranger 230 grains, very similar recoil impulse, and no bullet set backs. I don't see myself taking a 50 yard headshot, so the faster speed/lower drop doesn't mean too much to me.

[Bawanna]

Seems like a brass jacket wouldn't be to great on barrels. I've used the winchester alot, my department uses winchester SXT for duty and the Lawman for training when we can find it. I usually stick with Gold Dot because I like it, and there's no question that I'm pilfering department ammo for personal use in my armorer duties. Always gotta cover 6.

[jeep45238]

Brass jackets wont' hurt a thing. It's softer than copper, harder than lead, and both have been shot for a long time out of barrels without a problem. Still way softer than the steel used in barrels, so no issues.

Heck, I'm looking at the required equipment to start making .45cal FMJ/JHP out of .40 casings and cast lead, and .40 FMJ/JHP out of 9mm casings and cast lead.

[wyntrout]

It was like going from 9mm range fodder to CorBon +P. I was kinda surprised by the difference -- no problems just more difference than I expected.
I would carry the PM45 without the inner tube on the grip (worried about catching shirt and exposure), but no way do I want to do that at the range -- sharp grips and not in a good way!
There really seems to be a problem... or two... or three... with the magazines and insertion and the magazines presentation of the first round. I really had to exaggerate inserting the magazine and then use the top of the slide for leverage to make sure the darn thing seated. Often there would be a "crunching" sound as it finally went in as far as it could -- weird. Sometimes it would seem that the mag was all the way in but by gripping the top of the slde and the bottom of the mag and squeezing, it would go further -- big difference in how the top round is presented... or NOT!
Usually, if I managed to get the top round to chamber, the rest would chamber and fire as well.
After 234 rounds, one would hope that things would smooth out, but I don't think that just more rounds will correct the feed problems.
I like the gun but it was really disappointing that it took about 5 or 6 tries with the two 5-shot mags to get a cartridge to strip off the mag, go up the ramp, and chamber. After I adopted the "squeeze" step, things went a little better, but I would still drop the mag and check that a round was gone.
I have chores and stuff and I still have to clean the two PMs. I left them laying apart in pieces for cleaning and entertained my wife after she got off work. I was too sleepy to focus afterward. I want to re-shoot some side-by-side comparison pix of the two PM's parts. I kept getting weird results and shadows last night with the red-eye avoidance light -- orangish pix in a small circle surrounded by dark.
More Later. Cheers!
Wynn

[wyntrout]

I found the reason for the "crunch".

I found the reason for the "crunch". After after comparing PM45 parts to their PM9 counterparts and screwing with a lot of the parts of the PM45 that I shouldn't have, I tried sticking loaded magazines in each and trying to see a difference. I found a big one. Look at the first 2 photos #43 and #48. These are of the PM9 with a loaded magazine inserted. Notice that there is about 3/16" between the rear of the cartridge and the striker housing and the lower ridge of the slide that strips the rounds off the magazine as the slide returns to battery position.
Now look at the next 2 photos of the PM45 with a loaded magazine inserted and locked in place. There is NO clearance and the ramp/stripper/striker housing is resting on top of the base rim of the cartridge. This is why when the slide is released the stripper rides over the cartridge pushing it back down into the magazine and you have an empty chamber and a scratch on top of the cartridge. The magazine IS locked into place, but by squeezing the top of the slide and the bottom of the magazine hard enough the stripper mashes the rim which gives enough that cartridge is pushed forward of the stripper. That was the "crunching" sound.
Clearly something is wrong here. Both pistols have the slide locked to the rear and there is a big difference in the gap on the PM9, or lack of one in the PM45.
You guys with PM45s please look and see if there is a gap in your pistol between the rear of the cartridge and the stripper/striker housing. This is a big flaw and I think the magazine well is too far aft at the top or some other things are wrong. This sucks!
Wynn

I added a 5th photo of the top round in a magazine which gets scraped as the "stripper" rides over it. This happened a lot.

[jeep45238]

Wyn, all of my pistols, regardless of make, model, or caliber, have the slide go beyond the rim of the case when it's in the mag. Some by only a little, others by over 1/2 an inch.

It's impossible to feed from the mag if the (technical name I can't think of) part of slide that sticks down centerline of the mag can't get behind the back of the case - the further this distance, generally the less finiky the gun is. I'd be boxing it up and shipping it out on Monday with those pictures.

[wyntrout]

I had a lot of chores and other things to do and I finally got around to finishing cleaning the two guns for the range trip yesterday. I have been comparing all of the parts and how things look when assembled and screwed with the ejector trying to make the PM45 one look more like the PM9, thinking that was depressing the rear of the cartridges too much. I had an oopsie with my "Dremel-Like" tool but nothing major. I hope that doesn't void my warranty or something. Then I tried loaded mags with the slides locked back and seeing if I could find any differences. I couldn't believe the difference and I can see how it's screwed up now and why the magazine could be locked in place and no round being stripped. I saw the scratches on the tops of the cartridges in the magazine after failure to chamber a round. The squeezing I did caused the rim of the cartridge to fail enough to let the "stripper" slide behind the cartridge base and then the round could chamber.
I guess that I can't be lucky with everything. At least I have my PM9 as my main carry, anyhow. I guess that I shouldn't have mocked Murphy the other day, either!
As an emergency measure, I could very slightly round the bottom of the "stripper" but that might screw something else up. This isn't an emergency, though.
At least I figured out the problem. How they will fix that, I don't know. This is really weird -- the way there's no gap at all! I wonder how many other guns have this problem.
Wynn

I forgot to add something kind of funny. I forgot to take a cap in with me, but I did get some shooting glasses -- cheap Remington ones $4.95 at Wally World, but they are great. The yellow lenses help and I could see the sights and the target better. Using my prescription progressive lenses made one or the other out of focus.
Another thing is that I took a LOT of hits to the forehead from ejected cases... I mean sometimes it was like every one of those suckers came back and boinked me in the middle of my forehead. After the range, I went to Sam's Club and shopped there for maybe a half hour. When I got home, I finally saw my forehead and there were 7 or 8 or more little black marks from the ejected shells! My wife thought that was funny when I told her later.
The time before last I did take a cap, but I left it in the car and tried to duck when I could see them coming... to no avail. I could blink but that was about all I had time for. Sometimes the things bounced off part of the motorized target apparatus overhead the station. NOTE: Remember CAP!

[jeep45238]

As an emergency measure, I could very slightly round the bottom of the "stripper" but that might screw something else up. This isn't an emergency, though.

Actually, that would make the problem worse. It would drive the cartridge down into the magazine.

[wyntrout]

I think that it would just push the cartridge forward enough to scoot behind like when the rim gives way with my "squeeze" -- the "crunch".
I tried "tapping" the top rear corners of one magazine with a small hammer, but that's tough metal and it wouldn't deform inward to push the cartridge forward a bit.
<Sigh> I'll have to email Ian at Kahr and see if they will pick up the tab for shipping.
Wynn

Hmmm. If I bevel the bottom of the cartridge rim that might solve the problem... for one round. I want to hear from some other PM45 owners and see what kind of gap they have or if they are having problems, too.