New PM45 Range Test

[Bawanna]

Any way it's going back. I called Kahr this afternoon. Talked to Shawn. It will be picked up tomorrow.

Kramm, please please please let us know what you find out when your gun gets back. We seek answers and benefit in our own future gun purchases. Don't run off and leave us hanging. I'm confident that Kahr will fix it up, we just gotta know how.

[getsome]

Well fellas this post might stir up a chit storm but here goes....I went to two gun shops yesterday looking for .380 for my LCP... The first one didn't have anything but while there I wanted to look at a PM45....The owner said he quit selling Kahrs because of all the problems and returned guns he had to deal with....Went to my regular store and they had some Horniday CD which I did pick up a box of 20 for $32.99....I asked if he had any Kahr pistols...All he had was a CW9 which was used and traded in for something else...He said he doesn't stock Kahr products anymore unless someone wants to special order one..I asked why and he said the same thing as the other store owner, The guns seem to be hit or miss with operation and the price is out of line with other pistols he can sell and make a profit on without them coming back with issues....If someone asked me today about a Kahr pistol, I'm not sure I would recommend one over a Glock or M&P due to all the issues you guys are having....Now I'm not slamming Kahr cause I really like my CW40 but after having two different gun shop owners say what they did made me wonder if I made a good choice...When Toyota started having concerns with some of their cars they did the right thing, stop production, sales and issue a recall to fix the engineering problem....I hope someone at Kahr reads this forum because I know lots of other potential future customers interested in a Kahr product do and If I were in charge of marketing at Kahr Arms I wouldn't hesitate to recall the PM45 pistols and make sure they are correct and operate without failure...While a 3000 lb runaway Toyota is a dangerous thing so is a pistol that won't shoot or jams just when needed most....Ok go ahead and blast me if you want to, I'm old and thick skinned but this is how I feel and I'm really sorry so many of you are having problems with your guns... What do you think?.....Thanks for listening.....

[Vinikahr]

Well fellas this post might stir up a chit storm but here goes....I went to two gun shops yesterday looking for .380 for my LCP... The first one didn't have anything but while there I wanted to look at a PM45....The owner said he quit selling Kahrs because of all the problems and returned guns he had to deal with....Went to my regular store and they had some Horniday CD which I did pick up a box of 20 for $32.99....I asked if he had any Kahr pistols...All he had was a CW9 which was used and traded in for something else...He said he doesn't stock Kahr products anymore unless someone wants to special order one..I asked why and he said the same thing as the other store owner, The guns seem to be hit or miss with operation and the price is out of line with other pistols he can sell and make a profit on without them coming back with issues....If someone asked me today about a Kahr pistol, I'm not sure I would recommend one over a Glock or M&P due to all the issues you guys are having....Now I'm not slamming Kahr cause I really like my CW40 but after having two different gun shop owners say what they did made me wonder if I made a good choice...When Toyota started having concerns with some of their cars they did the right thing, stop production, sales and issue a recall to fix the engineering problem....I hope someone at Kahr reads this forum because I know lots of other potential future customers interested in a Kahr product do and If I were in charge of marketing at Kahr Arms I wouldn't hesitate to recall the PM45 pistols and make sure they are correct and operate without failure...While a 3000 lb runaway Toyota is a dangerous thing so is a pistol that won't shoot or jams just when needed most....Ok go ahead and blast me if you want to, I'm old and thick skinned but this is how I feel and I'm really sorry so many of you are having problems with your guns... What do you think?.....Thanks for listening.....

OK you ask for it! Why so much round-around to get to the point? Much what you have indicated is not new information( nothing to discover here) , much of the issues with Kahr guns are user issues not the gun, people fail to read the manual, clean and lube it. Unless issues with the guns come beyond certain percentages, I do not see anything changing. You will only hear from the few who had issues, that in one way or another change their mind after buying the gun.

[Bawanna]

Well fellas this post might stir up a chit storm but here goes....I went to two gun shops yesterday looking for .380 for my LCP... The first one didn't have anything but while there I wanted to look at a PM45....The owner said he quit selling Kahrs because of all the problems and returned guns he had to deal with....Went to my regular store and they had some Horniday CD which I did pick up a box of 20 for $32.99....I asked if he had any Kahr pistols...All he had was a CW9 which was used and traded in for something else...He said he doesn't stock Kahr products anymore unless someone wants to special order one..I asked why and he said the same thing as the other store owner, The guns seem to be hit or miss with operation and the price is out of line with other pistols he can sell and make a profit on without them coming back with issues....If someone asked me today about a Kahr pistol, I'm not sure I would recommend one over a Glock or M&P due to all the issues you guys are having....Now I'm not slamming Kahr cause I really like my CW40 but after having two different gun shop owners say what they did made me wonder if I made a good choice...When Toyota started having concerns with some of their cars they did the right thing, stop production, sales and issue a recall to fix the engineering problem....I hope someone at Kahr reads this forum because I know lots of other potential future customers interested in a Kahr product do and If I were in charge of marketing at Kahr Arms I wouldn't hesitate to recall the PM45 pistols and make sure they are correct and operate without failure...While a 3000 lb runaway Toyota is a dangerous thing so is a pistol that won't shoot or jams just when needed most....Ok go ahead and blast me if you want to, I'm old and thick skinned but this is how I feel and I'm really sorry so many of you are having problems with your guns... What do you think?.....Thanks for listening.....

We're suppose to blast ya cause your old and thick. Not me. I agree with ya. Vinikahr is also correct in my shortsighted opinion but there seems to be alot of QC issues that are slipping thru. As noted alot of shooter error and we usually only hear the bad. I have little faith in what gun shop owners say, some are very knowledgable, and they obivously know if they are dealing with alot of return issues etc but some speak with forked tongue. I'd lean more towards Vinikahr but I've sent mine back too. I've never sent any other gun back for their issue. I've sent 1 or 2 that were things I'd messed up. (never try PO Ackerly triplex loads in a Ruger 44). Guess we need to improve both from a user standpoint but Kahr needs to sort out some issues as well. Never roll over cause your old and thick, took a long time to get here, hold your head up.

[getsome]

I know that Kahrs like any small pistol are more difficult to shoot and more prone to problems due to the shooter and small tolerances in design but in this case it seems thar the PM45 platform may have been pushed into mass production before all the bugs were worked out...Wyn's gun for example came back as barrel out of spec, not acceptable with CNC manufacturing....Thats an engineering, design and quality control issue and it seems to me that Kahr is doing their product proto type testing using their customers rather than to get it right in house before bringing the product to market.....The issues seem to be mainly with the new PM45 which stands to be their biggest seller cause everybody wants a .45 so why not make it the flagship product and just take the time to get it right without all the fuss....Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Kahr at all, I love my CW40 and would buy another Kahr especially a PM45 but not until they figure it out...I hope that Kahr Arms stays in business for many years to come and make all kinds of new innovative pistols but it's not good business to do your product engineering on the fly, just figure out what the problems are and if necessary recall the things to correct what should have been caught before leaving Worchester....

[Vinikahr]

I know that Kahrs like any small pistol are more difficult to shoot and more prone to problems due to the shooter and small tolerances in design but in this case it seems thar the PM45 platform may have been pushed into mass production before all the bugs were worked out...Wyn's gun for example came back as barrel out of spec, not acceptable with CNC manufacturing....Thats an engineering, design and quality control issue and it seems to me that Kahr is doing their product proto type testing using their customers rather than to get it right in house before bringing the product to market.....The issues seem to be mainly with the new PM45 which stands to be their biggest seller cause everybody wants a .45 so why not make it the flagship product and just take the time to get it right without all the fuss....Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Kahr at all, I love my CW40 and would buy another Kahr especially a PM45 but not until they figure it out...I hope that Kahr Arms stays in business for many years to come and make all kinds of new innovative pistols but it's not good business to do your product engineering on the fly, just figure out what the problems are and if necessary recall the things to correct what should have been caught before leaving Worchester....

It is cheaper to deal with the product after it has been sold, just remember that product do not get tested in full, this could hijack the cost of operations (I am still dreaming of a PM 45 GAP). Anyway, we the buyers and users tend to do more testing that the manufacturer. I would say the majority of people won't go that far as most of us in here do. :7:

[Bawanna]

+1 High Five. Well said. Wish they'd hurry up, I want a PM45 pretty bad.

[Bawanna]

It is cheaper to deal with the product after it has been sold, just remember that product do not get tested in full, this could hijack the cost of operations (I am still dreaming of a PM 45 GAP). Anyway, we the buyers and users tend to do more testing that the manufacturer. I would say the majority of people won't go that far as most of us in here do. :7:

I wouldn't say it's cheaper to deal with the product after it has been sold, but is does create cash flow for the manufacture. Certainly the shipping cost alone for all the returned bad ones can't be a good thing. I also have to wonder about the guys with way more money than me who buy one, it doesn't run for whatever reason and they just day junk and throw it in a drawer and go for something else. Like you say the average guy isn't into these things the way some of us are.
I think your on the right track with the 45 GAP, I think the jury is still out on weather that round will survive. I think it should but if the gun makers don't make enough guns, the ammo makers won't make ammo and it's dinosaur status like so many good rounds before it. Hope it survives.

[wyntrout]

My barrel wasn't out of spec'. I think that it is a design flaw, since the PM9 has a big gap so that the stripper would be behind the cartridge instead on ON IT. The PM45 is not the only one with that particular problem. There was at least one guy who beveled the stripper on his CW45, I believe, to fix the same problem.
As far as I know, Kahr fixed mine and it worked well on the last range trip. If it continues to do that I'm a happy shooter. It didn't cost me any extra and that was a big thing. This is something I've been wanting since my first Kahr -- my K9 -- for them to make a compact .45ACP. When Kahr announced the P45 or whichever was first, that became my dream gun, but finances were tight up until this year. And by now, my "dream" had shifted to the PM45 with NS and then the DLC model of that. I don't see how I could be any happier with a 45, but my next "dream" would be a K4544N DLC -- all steel and black! I hope they make one, and soon... I ain't getting any younger.

Based on all of the problems we've seen, I would hope that Kahr would add a few more points for checking during QC... yeah, if they have that, other than firing it.
For one thing, they could take one of the magazines that is packaged with the gun, filled with ammo, and watch from the top as it is inserted into the pistol, whether or not the cartridge is in front or UNDER the stripper. Then chamber a round and shoot the whole magazine. That would test several things and maybe we wouldn't be doing so much QC for them and it would certainly be cheaper than shipping the gun back and replacing parts and spending more time completing the MANUFACTURING PROCESS!

Now I'm trying to figure what ammo to get based on performance, availability, and cost. I'm just toying with the thought of Magnaporting the PM45 for faster followup shots... but not seriously.
I have always stuck with 230-grain standard rounds -- FMJ or JHP. I was loading Federal 230-gr Hydra-Shok for a long time and when that got hard to get for a while, I switched to Remington 230-gr Golden Sabers. Now I need more defense ammo and am trying to find a "cost efficient, effective," and available round for defensive use.

[getsome]

I'm gonna shut up now, I just wanted to poke the hornet's nest to see what came out, HA HA HA HA HA...Look at all those p!ssed off bees HA HA H .....ow, ow, OW, OW OOOOOOW OOOOOOOOOW..... MOMMY!!! oh crap that hurts, I gotta go!!!!....:19:

[tomwalshco]

Getting 500hp out of a 7L engine is a piece of cake. Getting 500hp out of a 3L engine is a whole new ballgame. At least I give Kahr credit for the effort. They're going where almost no one has gone before... Glock hasn't done it. Big payload out of a little skinny gun. They'll keep trying. No time to be non-responsive in the CS department.

As far as customer testing of new products in the marketplace - hell, Taurus has been doing it for years. And still does. Kel-Tec, too. Price? Made in USA usually equates to 2X on price for a quality piece. Given Kahr's lineage, they all could be built in Korea, but they're not.

Gun shop types - Everything under their glass is always the best, the rest sucks. They could easily have said, "We don't sell enough guns to get good pricing, and we can't get any Kahrs anyway, so we just tell everyone Kahr quality is a crapshoot... Take a look at these XDs. Gotta love that Croation quality."

I think a total re-engineer of the PM45 magazine (or follower) might get the job done. They should send 20 PM45s to MecGar and tell them to "make it work". Taurus is having the same mag issues with their PT145.

[Bawanna]

I'm gonna shut up now, I just wanted to poke the hornet's nest to see what came out, HA HA HA HA HA...Look at all those p!ssed off bees HA HA H .....ow, ow, OW, OW OOOOOOW OWWWWWW crap that hurts, I gotta go!!!!....:19:

I don't think you created much of a stir myself. You spoke the truth. Might be a couple bumbles flying around waiting to hurt somebody but so far I'm sting free.

[PigButtons]

Worcester rhymes with rooster

It just now dawned on me that these guns come from a town where nobody was taught phonics. If you can't read, how can you expect to build hi-tec guns?

[kramm]

I'll let you know what happens with my pm45. I agree with the others that Kahr has seemed to have rushed into production of this particular handgun and missed a few bugs. From what I understand the pm9 is a really fine gun. Thats the one I wanted to get in the first place. I let my wife talk me into the 45. I already have two 9mm, and she said get the 45. Of course I didn't argue.

[jbaker]

man reading all this bad about the pm45 ,i felt really lucky that the one i traded worked flawlessly, so i went and got it back yesterday bc the guy i traded it too didn't like it bc it kept jamming on him, it never jammed for me so i traded back, put another 50 rounds through it yesterday of mixed ammo, all 230gn, but it was umc jhp, wwb jhp, and pmc fmj, and guess what not a single prob.. now it jammed for him at least 1x per mag he said, it jammed 1x for the range owner out of 6 shots, (5th jammed), and never for me. that leads me to assume ALOT of probs with this gun are shooter error,notice i said ALOT , NOT ALL. im sure there is actual probs, like the notch which i did my self bc i have no waranty. i think it must have helped bc the previous owner had alot of probs with 230gn ammo ,and ive had none, all in all its a great little gun, but 45 is still to expensive to shoot, im kinda thinking about a trading it for a pm9 or SORRY a g26