Ammo Taylored To Micro Compacts

[garyb]

Ouch!

[NavJAG06]

I like the Speer rounds in my PM9.

[mudfish]

Probably not much performance difference between a 3 inch barrel vs a 4 inch barrel.

This is a 180gr Winchester Ranger SXT fired from a 3.6" barrel from about 10 yards. It entered the back of a fleeing wild bore near the spine, traveled about 14-16" diagnally and was recovered just under the skin on the opposite side armpit. I was not the shooter but I watched it. The pig ran in a semi-circle and died 50 yards away.









I had previously conucted water jug tests and wet phone book tests, and the results are nearly exactly the same as this bullet recovered from live game.

[mudfish]

Guess what I carry?!

[MikeyKahr]

Hurts

It almost hurts just to look at it and think about the consequences.

[garyb]

SXT Question

Mudfish, Is the SXT still manufactured by Win or are supplies surplus?
Is the bullet you showed a 40? Just curious.
I really like the looks of that round. TX.

[joshh]

those pics = ouch...
the ranger t series is still made & is listed under law enforcement products on their site but ive seen the ranger t ammo in 9mm & .40 at shops, shows & cabelas. i am told the pdx is the same round & case just with the new bonding process which is why they are more $$$

[mudfish]

Oops, yes .40 S&W and yes it's in current production.

[garyb]

On a Utube video that I saw recently it did not appear that the new PDX version of the SXT gave the same expansion with the flared pointed copper. The PDX had good expansion, but without the snarly pointed protrusions as the T's. I do not know if the video simply did not demonstrate it well or if the PDX was changed enough so that the pointed edges were lost. It would be nice to get confirmation on this. Also, I could not find that the SXT was listed on the Winchester ammo site. They look to be a very nice round. Thanks.

[DasFriek]

The Winchester T-series can be hard to find since its regulated to LEO sales only, But it can be found at gun shows and online. Same goes for Federal HST.
Ive always been a stickler of matching my ammo to my ccw guns to maximize penetration and expansion.

1. 1911 5" Gov. loaded with Winchester T-series 230gr +P
2. 1911 3.5" Officers loaded with Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P
3. Kahr MK9 loaded with Federal HST 147gr +P and i also have a box of Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P short barrel loads so i have a choice.

But in reality i could have loaded all my guns with Golden Sabers and all do the same performance wise. But if you guys haven't noticed about me is i obsess over even the smallest of issues.
I could write paragraphs on why i chose each round for each gun.

Some you read is marketing, But i never bought my carry ammo due to manufacturers statements, But from as much ballistic and chrono tests i could find.

I say if you have the time to research what loads will give you the best results you want out of your gun, Then all the better go for it. I did.

But you could just buy any top makers SD ammo and not worry about it and i highly doubt any coroner could tell the difference between my matched ammo and yours.
The main thing is to get modern bullets which tend to expand more reliably and larger even at slower speeds.
10-20 years ago it wasn't as easy as it is today picking ammo for a specific gun.
Ive even picked specific ammo's for each of my mom and dads guns.
His- Taurus PT92 loaded with Winchester PDX1 124gr 9mm +P bonded
Hers- Walther PPS 9mm loaded with Hornady Critical defense 115gr

[joshh]

On a Utube video that I saw recently it did not appear that the new PDX version of the SXT gave the same expansion with the flared pointed copper. The PDX had good expansion, but without the snarly pointed protrusions as the T's. I do not know if the video simply did not demonstrate it well or if the PDX was changed enough so that the pointed edges were lost. It would be nice to get confirmation on this. Also, I could not find that the SXT was listed on the Winchester ammo site. They look to be a very nice round. Thanks.

the pdx does do the flaring like the t's but i have seen different results with it depending on what it hits.
http://www.youtube.com/user/andreleg.../3/M283nWhLPmk

[DasFriek]

Garyb- I do believe the SXT has been discontinued and replaced with the PDX1 bonded.
But the T-Series remains and the SXT can still be found online last i looked.

IIRC there has been about 4-5 revisions of the T-series line with 3 generations just of T-series and then off shoot branches like the SXT and PDX1 both of which are bonded. The SXT became the PDX1 when it was marketed to the public iirc.
Reason being its been around a long time since the original Black Talons. Winchester just built upon that line instead of scrapping it like it led the public to believe.

HST Federals are a newish round and hasnt been threw any changes and is well known for great expansion at lower speeds and still have high penetration.

Gold Dots are may have slowly had changes done to them but not much in the way of revisions from what what ive read, The short barrel version being one. But i feel that is more of a marketing tool as the GD bullet expands well at low speeds anyhow.

The Hornady Critical defense is getting mixed reviews in the hands of the public who are testing it using phone books and water jugs covered in old rugs from their kitchens.
The facts is it expands excellently at low speeds and will penetrate just below FBI standards due to its lighter weight, But that helps keep recoil down and great for people who want rapid shots or like kick for the ladies.
People also knock the round for not penetrating windshields and barriers without screwing up the bullet to the point it dont work well once it hits flesh.
But its designed for 3'-5' self defense face to face encounters.

I will say anyone using Hydro-shocks may want to move up to a more upto date load, They do clog and have expansion issues at times. The federal Hi-Shock which replaced it is better, But the HST which is their top of the line ammo at Federal can still be bought buy citizens.

I like to pick my ammo by barrel lenght which tells me which grain bullet to use, Then i look for a brand that carries that load and in a +P if possible as that allows you to use a slightly higher grain. The higher the grain the better since it promotes more penetration.
A shorter barrel will make me step down a size in grains, But in the case of my MK9 i went with 147gr +p but the reason is its loaded nice and hot and expands perfectly even at lower speeds while retaining penetration.
But just in case i change my mind i have the Gold Dot 124gr +P short barrel loads on hand.

Im sure there my be things im wrong on or missed and even confused about what i wrote above as its alot of info to pack into a little brain.

[DasFriek]

the pdx does do the flaring like the t's but i have seen different results with it depending on what it hits.
http://www.youtube.com/user/andreleg.../3/M283nWhLPmk

From what ive seen the PDX1 being a bonded round will have the lead folded right along with the petals so they don't end up looking like sharp "Talons"

The T-series is not a bonded round and such the lead and case don't expand together and the copper jacket talons tend to stand out more and look more deadly.
Luckily this round is not known to separate the jacket from the lead completely as that would be bad, It just does it on the petals.

[garyb]

Thanks DasFriek. That is what I saw about the new Win PDX round also. I felt it was due to the bonding that did not allow the talons to separate as they do on the SXT. I kind of like the talon separation and wish they were still in production.

What are your thoughts about the Corbon DPX in 40S&W? Thanks.

[DasFriek]

Please remember tho, Im just an average joe gun hobbiest who researches stuff alot. Im no authority and ive been know to make slight mistakes as i cant remember everything i read.

The non bonded T-series is what you want.
http://www.sgammo.com/
This is what i carry in my 5" 1911, And sometimes my 3.5" 1911 as they have a bit higher than normal fps for a +P .45 round.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...-winchester-45
They are still in production and the last digit in the part number should be "T".

Dont tell anyone about this steal: http://www.sgammo.com/product/cci/50...tmj-ammo-53655
I found some a few months back that were the same flat nose 200gr lawman but in the +p version, I keep those for woods carry as they have one heck of a whollop!

The Federal HST is basically the same round also HST= (Hi-Shock Talon) imo.
So either will be a nasty round, Plus since they are "LEO only" they don't come in chump box's of 20.
Its always fun getting shipments of ammo with warnings that the ammo is "LEO only and not for use by the general public".
Read the fine print in blue on these Nato 9mm fmj's:
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...p-ra9124n-ammo

The Corbon DPX is an excellent round imo. But i have some info you may find interesting.
Some reports recently have been coming in about inconsistent expansion, But most of these guys are shooting phone books also.
They are a 100% copper bullet which takes more space to get the grain weight close to middle weight rounds.
In the .40 class you usually see 155gr and 165gr DPX but never 180gr as the bullet would be too large physically being that copper isn't as heavy as lead.
Expansion is wonderful on the rounds ive seen often times beating many of the other top contenders.
To get picky it would be easy to say they wont penetrate as far due to the lower weight and its ability to expand much more which slows it down.

IMO i love the DPX round, Especially in shorter barrels. Thats where lighter bullets shine is shorter bores and even tho they are lighter the mass is higher so once expanded it will do possibly more damage than a higher grain bullet.
And from what ive seen most will reach 12" of penetration when fully expanded.

Their downfall? Cost, $40 for a box of 20 or 25 is alot.
I think they are best suited to the .380 and 9mm calibers as weight margins are smaller compared to the higher rounds like the .40 and .45

Despite their cost id never tell anyone they wasted money buying that ammo as it is a top performer.