Ammo Taylored To Micro Compacts

[joshh]

the pdx's do still expand with talons same as ranger t. the bonding just prevents jacket separation. this is what ive been told as well as what ive observed in person (w/ some homemade tests)
heres a pic i found too

[garyb]

joshh, Not doubting you, but the utube vids did not show the PDX talons exposed as they are on the ranger T's. Your pic did not come through for me to open. I hope this issue can get clarified somehow. Is ther a site or vid to review to see this. It only makes sense that the bonded bullet would not separate from the talons. ???? I wish I knew this for certain. Tx.

After I sent this, the photo came through. I see some of the talons protruding. Appears that you are correct on this joshh. Interesting. TX.

[joshh]

at the end of the vid he shows the rounds and you should be able to see the talons. here is another pic (animated from winchester) it should show or follow the image links to their pics on google. if you are concerned then just grab the rangerT's they are a great round and what many dept's use and are 1/2 the price of the pdx's. i have seen the best results with the 147gr in my pm9.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0uhBfA9Pqv4/hqdefault.jpg

[NoJustHappyToSeeYou]

Massad Ayoob said as recently as last Summer that he hadn't yet seen any data on real world shootings with the PDX round -- still too new. Lab tests are great. Lab tests plus real world results are much better, IMO. There seems to be a lot to be optimistic about from what I've read, though.

[DasFriek]

From every round ive seen expanded the Ranger T's the lead and copper petals/talons aren't bonded, Allowing the copper Talons to expand much further than the bonded PDX. But the core and jacket wont separate.
From what ive read some seem to believe the jacket and base are bonded in some way as ive never seen one separate.

With the greater expansion most people who know these two rounds will choose the Talons over the PDX, And yes they are half the price.

This is just my preference of bullets in order:
1. Ranger Talons
2. Federal HST's
3. Gold Dots
4. PDX1
5. DPX
6. Hornady CD FTX

[100percent]

Makes me wonder how people were stopped by gunshot wounds before these magic bullets.

[joshh]

Makes me wonder how people were stopped by gunshot wounds before these magic bullets.

hahaha... that's a great point.
if it ever hit the fan: reliability is the most important feature and both winchester's rangerT's and win pdx have performed great in my pm9 so i dont think you could go wrong with either one. i havent shot many other 9mm defense rounds as i liked the winchester's performance best when i went through this with my .40

[DasFriek]

Makes me wonder how people were stopped by gunshot wounds before these magic bullets.

Ive heard stories that in the past of people having 1911's pulled on someone and they had a heart attack on the spot and then soiled their pants.

Dont get me wrong, A fmj will kill just as easily as a hollow point. But HP's have a better chance of stopping them in their tracks while they still keep advancing after being shot with a fmj.
Technology affects everything, Im sure many revolver guys said the same thing when the 1911 came out.

I also stated in my first post iirc that im a stickler for selecting the perfect round for each ccw gun i own, But in reality i could just use Golden Sabers in everything and it most likely make 0% difference.
But besides ccw as a way of life for me i am a gun hobbyist also and that part makes me research and read everything i can to inform myself.
Most times at best im splitting hairs, But you know sometimes someone else may find it informative like i did also.

[garyb]

Keep the info coming in DasFriek! Some learn from good info.
TX

[garyb]

DasFriek,
You stated that the Corbon DPX comes in the 155 and 165, restricted due to the copper length. I get your point and your are correct about the length of the bullet due to copper material. However, the DPX only comes in 140gr in the 40 cal. Not a major point...and only mentioned for clarification.

I am also curious why you ranked the Fed HST before the Gold Dot? I had them in in a slightly different order based on ballistics and expansion/penetration. However I feel all four are very very good choices and it may come down to cost too. I agree, we are really spliting hairs with this analysis and I keep going back and forth on the ratings. I guess I am still not informed enough to make a final decision for my PM40. I realize that I am currently carrying the wrong ammo (Fed Hydrashocks 135gr), but will continue to carry it until I make my final choice.

1. Speer Gold Dot 155 OR Corbon DPX 140 (very close 2nd and possibly equivalent to the Gold Dots). I lean toward the Corbon probably due to their marketing information and the communications I've had with them. However, Gold Dot has great ballistics.

2. Win PDX 165 OR Fed HST 155 I like them both equally, probably due to the combination of their quality ballistics and great expansion characteristics.

I still can't locate the Win T's in 155gr or they would be included too. I like them, but can't find ballistics or 155's.

[DasFriek]

I can be very wrong here, But i swear ive seen 155gr or 165gr .40 cal DPX ammo.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/cor-bon_DPX_pistol.htm
If you read that you can see they use a 155gr in the 10mm load which can be universally swapped into the .40 line also.

But after a bit of searching im not finding anything but 140gr DPX as the only .40 choice.

I picked the HST higher due to it having a larger expansion and maybe even a tad better job at expanding at low speeds. But also you get the "T" in HST which ive always looked at meaning "Talon" like Winchesters Talon series.
If you look at at an expanded HST it has the same looking talons the non bonded Winchester T-series has. And it too being somewhat bonded at the base so core and case separation doesn't happen.
So my reason personally for liking the HST over the GD is:
Larger expansion.
Talons exposed for increased damage.
Better expansion reliability over the GD when going threw clothing.
The HST is highly cut all the way down it outer jacket so it expands as fast as possible once hitting tissue.

Any of my opnions could be argued wrong, Im no expert. And im in no way saying the HST is a much better round, Im just saying it may have slight advantages over the GD.

BTW the 200gr GD +P is what i carry in my 3.5" 1911
The main reason is Talon series and HST and PDX1 for that matter no one makes a 200gr bullet. In a shorter barrel i want less mass to keep FPS high so expansion isn't inhabited. And 200gr is still gonna penetrate deep.

Now about your 135gr Hydro-shoks. I used to carry them in my Ruger P90 20+ years ago and to this day are know to easily clog with clothing and have inconsistent expansion.
Secondly is you want as much mass and highest grain bullet without slowing it down with a short barrel. In a PM40 i think almost everyone agree the 155gr and 165 gr ammo is the best for that gun.
135gr ammo in a .40 is well known not to penetrate deep enough.

To answer your numbered questions.
1. I don't see much difference in those 2 loads, But personally id lean towards the GD's in 155gr. You get a heavier load with the GD and i feel the GD has better expansion reliability depending on what material the target is covered in.
140gr is gonna penetrate less despite what anyone says, Its the laws of physics that cant be argued.
Price- You can get a box of 50 GD's for $20 or so and the DPX $40 for 20.
Id much rather buy an ammo i can test in my gun more thoroughly.

2. I like the HST over the PDX1 as the HST is know to expand larger since its not inhibited due to being fully bonded like the petals on the PDX1 are.
Plus they give much nastier wound channels with those talons.
But the 165gr PDX1 will penetrate deeper and is a very reliable expander so i call this one a close call, But i lean towards the HST.

Here is the info on the Winny Tseries. I know with their .45acp line they are almost 50fps high speeds compared to its competitors.
40 Smith and Wesson 165 gr. Ranger T-Series- RA40TA
http://www.winchester.com/Products/l...es/RA40TA.aspx

I hope i answered everything accurately and best of my knowledge.
Now my list i posted a few posts back where i ranked all the ammo lines, Those only pertain to me as im biased to the .45acp round and whats best for me may not be best for a .40 cal gun with a short barrel.

For the MK40 with what info i know, Id choose my ammo like this:

Winchester T-Series RA40TA Ranger 40 Smith and Wesson 165gr
http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...cticalhst.aspx

Federal P40HST3 40 S&W 165gr
http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...cticalhst.aspx

Speer Gold Dot 165gr 50 round box.

PDX1
DPX Corbon
Hornady Critical defense.

I know i seem to be stuck on a few rounds, But ive seen nothing but excellent results from the T-series, HST and Gold Dots, With the PDX1 following the group.

[joshh]

so why did the FBI switch to the PDX1's? from what i read they showed superiority in maintaining mass and expansion when penetrating clothing as well as light barriers (car doors). As far as the talons go - the pdx's DO have them as well. i like federal ammo and fire more of their bullets than any other brand but the technology in the pdx1's (and the rangerT's) has them beat. Jacket separation with hollow point rounds was a major concern for the feds and Winchester for a reason.

[mudfish]

Why the lighter 165's instead of the 180's in 40 S&W?

[garyb]

DasFriek,
Info much appreciated. I totally agree about my Fed Hydrashock 135's and DO plan to change. It just happened to be what I settled on originally, just because. It was to keep the recoil nearer to the target loads I was shooting, but it turned out that I am not recoil sensitive. I realized at the time I purchased them that there were better ammos out there, but it would take me some time to sort things out. I agree with your comments and already realized those points. Well taken.

Thanks for clarifying that you were pointing your selections toward a 45. I didn't catch that in your earlier post. I'm clear now.

As for the DPX, perhaps you were looking at the Corbon JHP rather than the DPX? I've made this same misjudgement previously, so I understand. So many ammo types out there, we can only absorb so much at a time. Eventually the cumulative effect of research helps. OR perhaps Corbon DPX was made in other weights prior to my researching Corbon a few months ago.

Finally, thanks for your advice on the 40 selections. I have not wanted to go as heavy as 180 in the 40 and have wanted to stay at or under 165, preferring 155 and 140. I like all your choices and will check them out further.

Did you have any suppliers of 155-165 Win T's???

Thanks a bunch.

[Bawanna]

I've gotten them for the dept at www.dooleyenterprises.com. They are in Aneheim CA and I believe they have an outlet in Oregon.

They are a winchester distributor and I'm not positive if they sell just to LE or anyone, worth a check.

You might also try San Diego Police Supply, they have been our state contract ammo supplier and have a lot of inventory and winchester ammo.

I've never tried to buy there personally either so I'm not sure on them either.

I've never looked but several have mentioned AmmotoGo? Can't remember who that was but word was very few backorders and lots of options.