Ammo Taylored To Micro Compacts

[garyb]

Ordered Win 40cal 165gr SXT's last night from www.sgammo.com Their price per box of 200 was the same as www.gunbroker.com price per box of 250; so I thought I'd try a smaller quantity out before settling on them. Although I am very confident in the SXT's performance. 200 rounds of carry ammo will go a long way, considering that I am expecting to only need to shoot off one box of 50 to test them. I doubt that I will practice much with the carry ammo after that, because I will be reloading for IDPA. However, in bulk orders the price for these SXT's is very affordable to be shot up, compared to some of the other stuff out there.The SXT price per 50 was cheaper than some of the competitor's carry ammo price per 20. Interesting. Some will say that you get what you pay for, but in this case, I feel the SXT are qualtiy for a good price....providing I am happy with the way they shoot.

I'll feed my Fed Hydrashock's to the backstop on the range.

This was a helpful thread and helped me make a good change, although I struggled between the Win SXT, Fed HST, Gold Dot, Win PDX and Corbon DPX. All very good rounds for the 40 IMO. It is great to have options. Thanks for your valuable input DasFriek, but I only wish it had not ended on a sour note as a result of comments from another poster. We can't take this stuff personally, because on one hand everyone has their own opinion and on the other side someone out there will benefit from the discussion....like me! TX.

[DasFriek]

Well, Ill answer your post..... We be good!
I agree in buying 1 box for testing and not 4-5 and have to sell it at a loss if it wont feed in your gun. You can always order more. I just placed a $200 order with SGammo which may be small to most its a big order for me. But mine was all target ammo.
The main reason a box of 50 is so much cheaper than 20 is those are marketed towards LEO's and sold to dealers cheaper, The 20 round is aimed at consumers and sold to the retail spots at higher prices.
The problem happens when you go hunting for specific 50 round box's it may be hard to find next time as you never know who may have any in stock for sale to the public.
Ive been known to buy the "chump box" 20 round ones in Gold dots a lot as they never seem to have the loads i want in 50 round box's.

I still struggle as to which load ill carry and have 2 guns i have 2 different ammo's for ccw use. But in the end i just stick which one makes me feel happy inside in the gun and go on.

I wont say much about the last thing as its best to just let dead dogs lay.

[garyb]

DasFriek, Yea, I see your point regarding the challenge of locating the 50 round SXT's in the quantity I wanted. However, I am glad it worked out this time. I may not be so lucky next time, but If I am happy with them, I'd be willing to up the quantity of the next order. I also see your point on the chump boxes of 20 sold to the public. What a gimmick.

As mentioned, I struggled between the selections available. However, seeing the SXT expansion and finding the 50 round SXT's priced right vs the prices on the 20 rd competitor selections....made my decision easier.

Again...Thanks for your help. Good thread. I learned alot and feel much more comfortable with 40cal ammo selections (although I have not shot them all yet...so still more to learn). Always good to learn and be open/willing to change.
Respectfully.

[DasFriek]

I think the T-Series is much easier to find that Federal HST's as for some reason Federal is alot tougher on retailers who sell them.
I found some HST 147gr +P 9mm 50 round box for $30 at the last local gun show and ive been very happy with them, Very solid hitter.

Sadly ive even bought the chump box's usually Gold Dots as they tend to not make alot of varieties in 50 round box's, Usually its the most demanded load LEO's use that you see.
I like SGammo mainly as i can get very high quality fmj target ammo at basic ammo prices. Ranger fmj Nato +P loads in 9mm and Speer Lawman 200gr fmj copies of their Gold Dot line. Sprinkle in some Ranger 147gr flat nose 9mm and i look forward to shooting alot more over just using WWB and Federal red box from Walmart.

I do watch how many +P loads i send threw my MK9's barrel as i like a tight gun, But its built like a brick so a box once in a while wont hurt anything.

They also had some Speer Lawman 200gr +P fmj .45acp Flat nose for $16 a box and sadly i only bought two box's, But was smart enough to save one. As you don't see much +P fmj anything usually for the public.
They will be my woods carry load as bears have been prowling my families land in WV and that round is about as good as it gets unless i go to .45 Super.

[Mr. S]

Thanks for your valuable input DasFriek, but I only wish it had not ended on a sour note as a result of comments from another poster. We can't take this stuff personally, because on one hand everyone has their own opinion and on the other side someone out there will benefit from the discussion....like me! TX.

I thought this was an intelligent discussion thread?
A difference in opinion shouldn't cause a mature adult to bow out of a thread.
I called the Hornady CD defense a gimmick which is what it is.
(Read the link at the bottom of post #90 which has a quote from Steve Johnson at Hornady in the beginning.)

[tomwalshco]

I think it's mostly marketing.....
Now ammo such as this, without any FDA or ammo police, could simply be a different box!!

just sayin'
Tilos

Right on the button, Tilos.

Colt has been doing it for 50 years.
Glock for 25.
Great guns, but new? improved? revolutionary??
Centennial 1911 offerings. huh? 50th Anniversary Corvettes. right.

CEO walks into quarterly meeting and sez - "We gotta sell more product!"
Marketing guy sez - "How 'bout a blah, blah, blah campaign. Those guys are gullible, they'll buy anything if we make the box look bad and cool...."

Any data numbers can be ginned up to make the New and Improved look super innovative. Bangers in my town seem to be doing a pretty good job of it with old, tired WWB from Wallys.

[RONDO]

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Mr.S
I realize you don't mean to be offensive, because you say so ...
However, statements in your posting, while intended or not, directly attack the close held beliefs of others. You might preface your feelings about Hornady Critical Defense with IMO or IMHO to tone down the rhetoric a bit... just an example. You're amongst friends here. We all really dig guns and chatting about them with other like minded folks. Sharing opinions and info with fellow afficianados can be both fun and fruitful. Cheers!

[Bawanna]

Apparently alot of friends 2150 views on this thread. Wow!

[DasFriek]

This message is hidden because Mr. S is on your ignore list.

Bawanna45cal: Apparently alot of friends 2150 views on this thread. Wow!

Alot,minus one.

[garyb]

Always Learning

Your are 100% correct Bawanna. Good thread and I learned alot from it in many different ways. I've totally changed my carry ammo thanks to DasFriek's input.

I also learned something about forums and the limitation that written communication alone can have, vs sitting down with someone and having a healthy discussion, even disagreement. When we sit down and speak with someone, we can see the other person's expressions, hear what they mean to say and qualify if we have questions. It is a much better form of communicating than email of forums, which often stimulate problems solely on the basis of HOW we are communicating. This is a limited form of communication. I did not irritate DasFriek in this particular thread, because I happened to agree with him. But I realize that I have done so in other threads. And I appologize for doing so, because now I understand why. What I've learned is that I must (and other's should consider this - please understanding that this comment is not directed at anyone specific)...but I need to temper and qualify my written forum communications to be sure I do not offend anyone. Written communication limits what we "mean" to say, I (I'll speak for myself) sometimes I come across harsh to others when I actually don't mean to do so. It is writing style. I may mean to express my opinion which sometimes differ from other's options and interests. When I do not temper my disagreement by applying appropriate language/explanation, it inadvertently arouses conflict without me meaning to do so. I find disagreement healthy to me, because I respect diversity, without considering what the other person is thinking. But enjoying disagrement is not always the case for others and I need to learn this particularly in forums.

Therefore, I've learned that I need to express my opinion, but especially if it is causing a disagreement, I need to be quick to requalify myself in a way that respects the other person's opinion. I do not want to cause an argument, just because I have expressed my opinion inappropriately and this results in offending someone. It is not right of me to do this and I need to be sensitive to others. And if I sense that I have offended someone, I need to be quick to fix it right away, by dropping my ego and considering the other person first. I learned from this in recent forums with my forum friend - Jocko, whom I have the highest respect. He has helped me in more ways than I can say to get off with the right start with my new PM40. He is a very knowledgeable man. But we won't always agree and we NEED to find ways to disagree with respect and humility. I think we can do this. We can both be strong willed and opinionated, and we have butted heads. I am sincerely sorry for that. Fortunately, Jocko and I have hopefully worked things out privately and I know I have learned from it. I AM SORRY Jocko, my good forum buddy and fellow archer. I hope going forward we will deal with eachother in a much more respectful manner. I know I will. And I hope you will accept this apology from me. As Kramer once said on Sienfeld "Don't look at me...I'm hideous"...haha.

I hope others on the forum can learn from my mistakes and I hope everyone can put negative issues behind them by writing it out better in the future. The forum is here to help us, not damage relationships. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks.

[xzhync]

I know I jumped into this discussion far too late and if everyone is tired of it then please just tell me to shut-up. My question, should anyone choose to entertain it, is in regards to the difference in a 147 grain vs. 124 grain. There have been some folks on this thread saying that the 147 grain performs better in the short barrel (3" barrel) that many of our Kahr pistols have. I am confused at that. I had read in the past that the heavier bullet slows down less (as a percentage) than does a lighter bullet, but it seems like the performance stats of a 124 +p are so much higher than a 147 (as far as fps and fpe) that the 147 grain would still have lower performance. In other words, if say the 124 +p looses 10% in a 3" barrel (vs. a 4" barrel) and the 147 grain loses say 5%, but the 124 +p starts out at around 1150 fps and 395 fpe...and the 147 starts out at 1000 fps and 320 fpe (just estimating numbers) wouldn't the 124+p still end up with higher fps and fpe? How could the 147 actually hit harder and expand more?

I am all for using 147 grain. I even bought some from LGAmmo, but I still don't understand how it can actually perform better than 124+p. In a few videos I saw on youtube, it looked like 147 grain tended to penetrate deeper, but didn't expand quite as much on average?

Thanks to anyone willing to answer my (probably) uneducated questions?

[Mr. S]

If the guy feels so strongly in his concerns he should bring up a class action suit against Speer for knowingly endangering lives. My point is one guy shooting stuff in his back yard doesn't tarnish we well known round like the GD imo one bit.


And guys please if you see something im making a mistake on or just completely wrong point it out. I don't argue points or facts or theories but i feel we all have the right to an opinion and try and leave it like that.
But if im dead wrong making a mistake pls say something as i make stakes.

The first quote here is actually very childish(much like post #91) considering the person whose test I quoted has probably forgotten more about ballistics than the poster will ever know.(Google Doctor Gary Roberts if you must)) And later on he realized he was wrong about the "shooting stuff in his backyard" part.




The second quote speaks for itself.
I never flat out told him he was wrong even though he invited someone to do it if he was.So why post that if you are going to get offended that easily when someone questions you on something you post?


So if anyone needs a "Dr. Phil moment" it is surely not me.

[copterdrvr]

It can't, based on physics. Hydrostatic shock is accomplished by an object moving at high velocity and imparting it's energy in a target. A heavy bullet doesn't impart more energy in it's target BECAUSE it's moving a a lower velocity.

Example:

Corbon 115 grain JHP = 465 footpounds of energy
Remington Golden Saber 147 grain JHP = 320 footpounds of energy

Bottom line for me equals faster follow-up shot, higher energy dump=quicker incapacitation of intended target, more fun to shoot!!!! If you want to shoot a 147 grn bullet, get a 40 SW. Heck, I shoot 135 grain bullets in my 40-low recoil, and bigtime energy (507 ft pounds energy) as compared to 392 ft-pounds for a 180 grain hollowpoint.

Velocity, my friend, is the KEY!!!

[joshh]

I know I jumped into this discussion far too late and if everyone is tired of it then please just tell me to shut-up. My question, should anyone choose to entertain it, is in regards to the difference in a 147 grain vs. 124 grain. There have been some folks on this thread saying that the 147 grain performs better in the short barrel (3" barrel) that many of our Kahr pistols have. I am confused at that. I had read in the past that the heavier bullet slows down less (as a percentage) than does a lighter bullet, but it seems like the performance stats of a 124 +p are so much higher than a 147 (as far as fps and fpe) that the 147 grain would still have lower performance. In other words, if say the 124 +p looses 10% in a 3" barrel (vs. a 4" barrel) and the 147 grain loses say 5%, but the 124 +p starts out at around 1150 fps and 395 fpe...and the 147 starts out at 1000 fps and 320 fpe (just estimating numbers) wouldn't the 124+p still end up with higher fps and fpe? How could the 147 actually hit harder and expand more?

I am all for using 147 grain. I even bought some from LGAmmo, but I still don't understand how it can actually perform better than 124+p. In a few videos I saw on youtube, it looked like 147 grain tended to penetrate deeper, but didn't expand quite as much on average?

Thanks to anyone willing to answer my (probably) uneducated questions?

When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

I hope this helps.

[joshh]

i took that response from someone elses post because i no longer have the report from winchester but that pretty much sums it up. the first to recommend the 147gr to me was a leo i know who is very knowledgeable and passionate about firearms which is what got me into the 147gr for my pm9. ive done some backyard ballists tests with it too and have had the best results with the 147gr. give em a try and see what results you get. if anything it'll make for some fun shooting even if you decide its not for you. i dont think anyone could go wrong with most of todays modern rounds.