Why do people like +P ammo?

[jocko]

I sh-t my buddy Bawanna over the 45 thing. It is a great caliber.It's his favorite that is for sure just never was any part of a favorite with me. Always been a 9mm fan, and will now stay that way, Some love the 40 cals to, just not for me in a kahr for sure. So when I jest about 45's it is just that, and it is mostly directed at Bawanna, whom I know I can do that with an get away with it

[jg rider]

As the O.P let me add this. I'm fortunate that at times I get to shoot with L.E. agencies, cities, county, state, and have watched the feds when they're at the range practicing, and as far as I know non of them use +P 9mm, .40 SW, or .45acp.

I like to think that carrying what they do will help in the event of a shooting. After all they are the experts

When I carry a 45. I don't need +P rounds. for a bullet that starts out as .451" and opens up to almost 1.00" through clothing in standard velocity.
And when carrying a Kahr I don't need a +p for a 147gr. bullet that starts out as .355" and expands to almost .075" in my tests which equal L.E results.

Take a look at these ballistic results at different L.E. agencies put on by Federal.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[Barth]

As the O.P let me add this. I'm fortunate that at times I get to shoot with L.E. agencies, cities, county, state, and have watched the feds when they're at the range practicing, and as far as I know non of them use +P 9mm, .40 SW, or .45acp.

I like to think that carrying what they do will help in the event of a shooting. After all they are the experts

Take a look at these ballistic results at different L.E. agencies put on by Federal.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

I think if you double check 9mm most LE are actually carrying;
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
or
Federal HST 124 +P
in their duty weapons.

I've only heard of one agency that doesn't allow +P 9mm.
And it sounds like some of the officers are not happy.
They recently had issues with failure to penetrate with an indecent involving an auto.

NYPD, for instance, are issued 9mm as standard side arm and
run Speer GDHP 124 +P.

Although I believe most agencies issue 40 S&W.
And there is no SAAMI rating for +P in .40 S&W.
Some Feds issue 357 Sig and there is no SAAMI +P for that round either.

[jg rider]

I think if you double check 9mm most LE are actually carrying;
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
or
Federal HST 124 +P
in their duty weapons.

I've only heard of one agency that doesn't allow +P 9mm.
And it sounds like some of the officers are not happy.
They recently had issues with failure to penetrate with an indecent involving an auto.

NYPD, for instance, are issued 9mm as standard side arm and
run Speer GDHP 124 +P.

BTW There is no SAAMI rating for +P in .40 S&W.

I won't agree or disagree with you, but based on the ballistic results from the link I provided, most of these agencies don't use +P ammo. And really with what the Fed 147 HST can do I don't see any need for them as a civilian. AFAIK no agency in my state use +P . But I could be mistaken.

And for the NYPD using 124 +P G.D. and their 13# trigger pull, that's another story.

Here's some 9mm results in bare ballistic gelatin from there

-----------Weight------ Pen.------- exp.
ft. collins
---fed hst--- 147------- 13.25------ .821
----win------ 127 p----- 13.25------ .641
---speer gd-- 124 p------ 13.25------ .665

aurora
---fed hst---- 147-------- 12.25----- .830
---speer gd--- 124 p------ 13.25----- .665
---win-------- 124 p------ 11.00----- .610

l.a.ccounty
---fed hst----- 147-------- 13.50---- .771
----win-------- 147-------- 13.25---- .607
----win-------- 115-------- 9.50----- .552

riverside ca
----fed hst---- 147-------- 13.00----- .724
----speer gd--- 147-------- 13.25----- .570
-----win------- 147-------- 10.25----- .656

santa clara ca
----fed hst----- 147-------- 11.75----- .852
------win------- 147-------- 13.75----- .611

piece cnty. wash
----fed hst----- 147-------- 11.5------ .945
----fed HST----- 124------- 11.75----- .839
-----win-------- 127-------- 16.6------ .718

The last one which is the most extensive 9mm test was to long to copy. I will say that at one time Portland carried Glock .40s. But after some Ka-booms they went back to 9mm

[Barth]

I won't agree or disagree with you, but based on the ballistic results from the link I provided, most of these agencies don't use +P ammo.

Since most agencies issue 40, and there is no +P in 40 (SAAMI),
I would tend to agree - LOL!

[jg rider]

Since most agencies issue 40, and there is no +P in 40 (SAAMI),
I would tend to agree - LOL!

The city of Portland uses Glock17 147 HST 9mm. Two sheriff dept that I know allow choice of 9mm 147HST, .40, .45 230 HST or Win. RA45T (my source). As far as I know none of them use +Ps. But also the climate is mild here so people don't usually wear multi layers of clothing. Not like NYC

Here's a site that did some tests using sim-test ballistic gelatin on most popular standard or +P ammo

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9?feature=watch

[Barth]

The city of Portland uses Glock17 147 HST 9mm. Two sheriff dept that I know allow choice of 9mm 147HST, .40, .45 230 HST or Win. RA45T (my source). As far as I know none of them use +Ps. But also the climate is mild here so people don't usually wear multi layers of clothing. Not like NYC

Here's a site that did some tests using sim-test ballistic gelatin on most popular standard or +P ammo

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9?feature=watch

I'm at work and can't get to anything gun related but this site - LOL.
But I think the vast majority of all LE ammo contracts are with
Winchester, Federal and Speer.
If I remember correctly there is no +P in 147 gr 9mm from any of them?
P+ in 40 doesn't exist in any weight from anyone (SAAMI).
And 230 gr 45, as Jocko joked about, isn't going much faster +P anyway.
Although I think heard the LAPD has had pretty spectacular results with
230 gr +P Ranger Ts.

BTW I have some sort of old FBI protocol test results and am well aware
of ballistic performance of various ammunition.

The three 9mm rounds I specified earlier are pretty much accepted as the best of the best in 9mm SD ammo.
Not just in tests.
But from an actual track record on the street with use by Federal and State LE agencies.
They are:
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
and
Federal HST 124 +P

And they are all +P or +P+

Also, generally accepted as the very best 2" barrel 38 special ammo?
Developed by Speer for LE back up / off duty.
Speer GDHP Short Barrel 135 gr 38 +P.

So since I carry a 4" 9mm, and a 2" 38 snub nose, that's why I like +P ammo.

[Knight92]

I don't use the +p irrespective of ballistic tests for the simple fact I don't practice with it, so why would I want to have my life hang the balance of something I don't shoot as often, and in the middle of an adrenalin dump?

[jg rider]

I'm at work and can't get to anything gun related but this site - LOL.
But I think the vast majority of all LE ammo contracts are with
Winchester, Federal and Speer.
If I remember correctly there is no +P in 147 gr 9mm from any of them?
P+ in 40 doesn't exist in any weight from anyone (SAAMI).
And 230 gr 45, as Jocko joked about, isn't going much faster +P anyway.
Although I think heard the LAPD has had pretty spectacular results with
230 gr +P Ranger Ts.

BTW I have some sort of old FBI protocol test results and am well aware
of ballistic performance of various ammunition.

The three 9mm rounds I specified earlier are pretty much accepted as the best of the best in 9mm SD ammo.
Not just in tests.
But from an actual track record on the street with use by Federal and State LE agencies.
They are:
Speer GDHP Duty 124 +P,
Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 +P+,
and
Federal HST 124 +P

And they are all +P or +P+

Also, generally accepted as the very best 2" barrel 38 special ammo?
Developed by Speer for LE back up / off duty.
Speer GDHP Short Barrel 135 gr 38 +P.

So since I carry a 4" 9mm, and a 2" 38 snub nose, that's why I like +P ammo.

Fed.HST, Speer GD, and others do make a 147+P

I'm also familiar with the FBI test protocols and standards that were initiated after the 1986 Miami shootings. In them it doesn't require +P ammo, just penetration being the main criteria, then expansion. All test were through different media, like wallboard, plywood, windshield, etc.

Since we started this debate over 9mm, I'll stay with that
The tests I provided above show professional test result done at 7 different L.E. facilities by ATK/Fed. and of the 7, only 2 locations tested +p ammo. And looking at the results, the standard 147 gr. did just as good or better than the +P stuff

As a civilian I'm only interested in two of the FBI protocols, penetration and expansion in bare and clothed gelatin.

I realize that there's lots of factors like bone & muscle etc. that effect a bullet's effectiveness. But shot placement will help with effectiveness. That's why we'll go with a round that is controllable for fast and accurate follow up double and triple tap shot placement. And will get the job done just as well as a round that may make your hands separate, cause muzzle flip and make you loose track of the front sight. I'm talking out of a lighter gun.

We practice 3 times a week, how often do practice multiple shots / hits with your +P ammo to feel proficient with it?

You mentioned the NYPD using 124 +P Speer GDs in a earlier post. I'm not impressed, in fact I think some of them shouldn't be allowed guns.
Look up innocent, unarmed Amadou Diallo shot at 41 times and only hit 19 times from a distance of about 15'. Or innocent bystander Denise Gay. There are other incidents.

As far as .38s, boy times have changed. most everybody thinks you have to have +P rounds in them.

I shoot a commercial soft shooting 125 gr. bullet out of a S&W 342 TI or a Mod 60 that I would bet my life on. I've posted pictures of it somewhere on this forum. Penetration may not be up to FBI standards, but I don't think anything out of a 2" or less barrel would. But expansion is great and 100% reliable.

Did you know back in the 80s we loaded 148gr. Hornady hollow base wad cutter with the cavity facing out, in front of a light 800 fps powder charge. In wet paks they opened from .358" to around .700"

That was the start of the hydra shok design. IIRC, about that time there was prison guard named Brenski (?) in upstate N.Y. that took that design and added a center post for better penetration. The original intent was for riot control. Many years later the design was sold to a ammo manufacturer before Fed.

[Mr. S]

Fed.HST, Speer GD, and others do make a 147+P

I know Federal does have the 147+P HST but Speer does not make a 147+P Gold Dot in 9mm.The Winchester Ranger T and bonded series are not available in 147+p 9mm either.

[jg rider]

I know Federal does have the 147+P HST but Speer does not make a 147+P Gold Dot in 9mm.The Winchester Ranger T and bonded series are not available in 147+p 9mm either.

Oops! Your right, and I knew that. Google search said Fed , Double Tap, Buffalo Bore. I believe Win has 127+P

[Barth]

I don't use the +p irrespective of ballistic tests for the simple fact I don't practice with it, so why would I want to have my life hang the balance of something I don't shoot as often, and in the middle of an adrenalin dump?

Good point and I totally agree.
That's why I practice with +P as well - LOL.

G27 with G23 4.02" Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel.
And Speer Duty GDHP 9mm 124 gr +P

[Barth]

Oops! Your right, and I knew that. Google search said Fed , Double Tap, Buffalo Bore. I believe Win has 127+P

No problemo
I read way too much about ammo anyway - LOL.

Truth is, with the best high tech ammo available these days,
the difference between them is really insignificant.
Speer GDHP, Winchester Ranger T-Series or Federal HST;
in any LE caliber, in any weight or pressure -
and you're in really good shape.

The real focus these days, IMHO, should be finding a round that functions
reliably in your weapon and that you are most proficient with.

Nice talking with you and have a great day!

[muggsy]

Yes, why do people like the +P stuff over the standard velocity stuff in light concealed carry guns?

We live in a mild winter climate, so multi layers of clothing is rare. So for us IMHO +P ammo is over kill. I can't speak for other locations.

The biggest concern for us is controlled follow up shots. My biggest fear is if we have to draw and fire, no bystander gets hit. Using an IPSC target or a 6" steel plate, from a beep we can usually draw and fire from concealed carry in l.5 seconds, and hit C.O.M. from 10 yrds, with a +P round. The concern is what happens after that first shot.

As former IPSC competitors we know about shooting double taps and multiple targets with major power .45acp loads out of heavy 1911s and we know our split times. I seem to remember they were about .18 seconds

But for concealed carry we carry either lighter PM9s or K9s, and we practice double and triple taps.

We ran some tests with standard velocity and +P ammo to see how long it took to do follow up shots without spraying and praying. We used a Pact timer to time our splits between shots, after finding our front sight, and having fast accurate double and triple tap hits.

The times for us between +P and standard ammo was like night and day, out of the PM9s and almost as bad out of the K9s. We decided on fast, controlled, accurate hits over slow controlled hits. Oh don't forget about the adrenalin rush.

We did some ballistic testing some years back and here's the results

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11851

LET THE BASHING BEGIN !

It comes from the uniquely American philosophy that if some is good, more is better. My philosophy is that you can't kill someone deader than dead. Two center mass and one to the head will usually kill anyone.

[jg rider]

Good point and I totally agree.
That's why I practice with +P as well - LOL.

G27 with G23 4.02" Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel.
And Speer Duty GDHP 124 gr +P

Nice shooting . I'm not familiar with the 40. Only time I shot one was out of a PM. But the wife has a Glock 17 for the house. I wonder if I can convert it to a . 40, using the the same slide and mags.